Joe Wehinger (nicknamed Joe Winger) has written for over 20 years about the business of lifestyle and entertainment. Joe is an entertainment producer, media entrepreneur, public speaker, and C-level consultant who owns businesses in entertainment, lifestyle, tourism and publishing. He is an award-winning filmmaker, published author, member of the Directors Guild of America, International Food Travel Wine Authors Association, WSET Level 2 Wine student, WSET Level 2 Cocktail student, member of the LA Wine Writers. Email to: Joe@FlavRReport.com
Join Us for An Incredible Prosecco Experience: Taste and Discover with Wine Expert Alan Tardi Wed June 26th at New York Wine Studio
Prosecco has gone from a little known mountain fizz to a vinous superhero, overtaking Champagne (and every other sparkling wine out there) and enjoyed by wine drinkers throughout the world, as the base of a cocktail or an everyday quaff.
But despite its huge popularity, most people don’t know much about it.
And there is much more to Prosecco than many people are aware.
”My objective is to
clarify the critical differences
between the original ancient Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco and
the DOC Prosecco that was enacted in 2010.”
Alan Tardi
New York Wine Studio
Prosecco is produced only in Italy, in the Northern regions of Veneto and Friuli, and there are three official Prosecco appellations.
Prosecco DOC
One of them, Prosecco DOC, was created in 2010. It occupies a huge, mostly flat area encompassing almost two entire regions and accounts for most of the 700+ million bottles of Prosecco produced each year.
Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco DOCG
Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco DOCG is a tiny area in the foothills of the Dolomites consisting of 15 small municipalities in the province of Treviso. This is the ancient winegrowing area where Prosecco was born and made a miraculous comeback in the aftermath of World War II.
New York Wine Studio’s Alan Tardi
Besides its pedigree, there are numerous factors of the Conegliano Valdobbiadene enclave that distinguish it from any other winegrowing area in the world: complex and diverse topography, variety of soils, native grape varieties, distinct sub-areas, ancient history, and varied typology—bubbly, fizzy, and still; secondary fermentation in tank or in bottle, leaving sediment in the bottle (known as Ancestral Method) or removing it (Traditional Method).
In this class—which takes place right in the middle of National Prosecco DOC week—we will discuss the origin and evolution of Prosecco in the Conegliano Valdobbiadene area. We will also examine the two additional Prosecco appellations created in 2010.
But most of the time will be devoted to exploring and tasting Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco through a lineup of 8 exceptional terroir-driven wines, in a variety of styles, that demonstrate the unique characteristics, complexity, and diversity of the original Prosecco.
Participants will also learn how to say “CONEGLIANO VALDOBBIADENE” like an Italian!
Alan Tardi has arranged a fantastic lineup of unusual and exceptional wines (half of them are coming directly from Italy) which demonstrate the various factors that characterize the complexity and uniqueness of Conegliano Valdobbiadene: Different production methods (“Tranquillo” i.e. still, Martinotti, Classico/Traditional, Ancestral); frizzante, spumante; single vineyards, Rive, native grape varieties; diverse, soils, terroirs and topographies.
NYC take a Weekend trip Tasting Bourbons?This Fredericksburg Virgina Bed & Breakfast Might Be Your Dream Visit, Owen King from Ironclad Distillery shares Delicious Details
Ironclad Inn is the first B & B & B – Bed & Breakfast & Bourbon Tasting Room.
Ironclad Inn is the first B & B & B – Bed & Breakfast & Bourbon Tasting Room
Today’s conversation with Distiller Owen King from Ironclad Distillery has been edited for length and clarity. For the full, un-edited conversation, visit our YouTube channel here.
Owen King, Ironclad Distillery
Joe Winger:
A lot of really cool things are happening right now. I want to jump into your tasting room, the distillery, we’ll get into bourbon tastings in a few minutes.
But first and foremost, what’s the most important thing with Ironclad right now for you?
Owen King:
The most important thing about Ironclad for me right now is the same thing it’s always been, trying to make the best bourbon we can.
The other thing is spreading the word about our bed and breakfast; and bourbon. It’s a bed and breakfast in Fredericksburg that when you’re there, you can drink bourbon.
Ironclad’s famous Old Fashioned cocktail
We make a lot of old fashions there and we always have all these leftover oranges. Now the perfect thing is in the morning you have fresh squeezed orange juice from our [leftover] old fashions.
It’s really working double duty now.
Besides that I just love the fact that we can now expand our distillery up to Fredericksburg. So we can have more people try our bourbon and enjoy our bourbon, which is the goal.
Joe Winger:
Getting to know you before you jump into Ironclad, I want to use the word “were”, you were a football player and cooking changed your life.
Tell us more about your cooking. Was there a special dish that enhanced your life?
Owen King:
I’m Italian. So obviously with the Italian genes, we share our love through food. Growing up I cooked a lot.
When I went to college [I cooked]for my teammates. I’d make dinner for everyone. So when we decided to open the bourbon distillery, I figured, I know how to cook. I think I could probably figure out how to make bourbon.
I know flavors. I know how things go well together. I think I have a pretty decent palette.
So putting all those things together to make a great bourbon was the goal.
Food is one of those things where you never stop improving. I feel the same about bourbon.
FlavRReport.com on YouTube
Joe Winger:
Is there a favorite dish?
Owen King:
Breaded chicken cutlets and spaghetti.
That is how it started. Then I was like “I really like cheese.” Maybe I could put cheese in with the breadcrumbs and then do that. Then I started expanding. Chicken Parm. Making my own sauce. Thinking I could add something here to make that better.
It’s the same way I look at bourbon.
Thinking, “I like what this person’s doing. Let me see what they’re doing. I can build off that to make it work on my own.”
Creating my own recipes, going from there, just continually tweaking little things here and there.
We’ll make a 5% difference, maybe a 10% difference.
For most people when we think of bourbon, we don’t always think of Virginia as the first choice. What would surprise us most about coming down to Virginia for a bourbon tasting and staying the night?
Ironclad Distillery
Owen King:
If you’re coming down to Virginia, you have to remember Virginia is the birthplace of American spirits. The first place spirits were made in the new colonies, in the new world, was here in Virginia.
The first corn liquor which would eventually become bourbon, was made in Virginia.
You can also talk about Elijah Craig, who was from Fairfax County, Virginia, before he moved out to Kentucky.
On top of that, Kentucky wasn’t a state until 1793. Evan Williams was doing distillation in 1783, and at that point Kentucky was still Virginia.
The birthplace of bourbon is right here in Virginia.
I’ve been to Kentucky a lot. They talk about the birthplace of bourbon being there in Kentucky.
Maybe the territory it’s in was Kentucky, but it was still Virginia at the time.
Whenever someone comes by, I can tell them the history of actual bourbon, where you’re gonna get the whole story, not just the fantasized story that you get in Kentucky.
Joe Winger:
I’m incredibly glad you just shared that.
Let’s talk about The Ironclad Bed and Breakfast now. The bourbon tasting room, the event space.
Owen King:
We wanted to spread our bourbon out around the state. We’ve always really liked Fredericksburg. It’s a beautiful town. It’s got a ton of history to it.
Nothing goes better with bourbon than a good story.
So we can always tell our history while drinking. So with our bed and breakfast, we looked at what the bigger guys were doing. A lot of them were starting to have these places where you could stay [the night] and get an experience to go along with it.
We really wanted to spread our Ironclad experience.
We have a tasting room. It’s beautifully decorated by my sister. We’ve got a bottle shop where you can pick up pretty much every one of our bourbons that are available. We’ve got a bar so you can try it from our seasonal cocktail menus where we change it five times a year.
We have a winter, a fall, a spring, summer [menu].Then a holiday menu as well.
No matter what time of year you’re there, you’re trying something that’s going to go well seasonally.
Everyone likes seasonal drinks. You don’t want to drink in the fall, what you’d drink in the summer.
We always have an old fashioned and it’s a damn good old fashioned.
Then we also have an event space. We have weddings. We’ve had 50th birthday parties.
Ironclad Inn wedding and special events
We’ve had any event that you want to tie into with our bourbon or just if you want a beautiful event space in a building that was built in 1793 we have that as a great option.
It’s a really cool spot that you can go and see and experience.
It’s something we want to share, our love for bourbon with everyone.
Whether you’re here in Newport News or in Fredericksburg, you’ll get a King family member there to tell you our story and tell you all about our bourbon and show you around.
Ironclad Bottled-in-Bond Straight Bourbon Whiskey
Joe Winger:
Outstanding. Let’s get to the tasty part now. You have several amazing bottles. When someone comes to your tasting room this weekend, what should they be looking forward to?
Owen King:
We do a few bottle releases that are once a year for us. One of my favorites.
A five year, three barrel blend of three 30 gallon barrels. Bottle of Bond.
The history alone is one of my favorite things to talk about. In 1897 the federal government stepped in because there was people dying from drinking bad whiskey.
They stepped in to “certify” everything in there.
“If you bottle it at four years old and at 100 proof, we will claim that this is a bottle and bond bourbon certified” by the federal government that it is safe to drink.
That story alone is one of my favorites of bourbon lore.
We just want to make sure that we do that every year that we can.
It’s absolutely one of my favorite bourbons. It’s our four grain mash bill. 70% corn 10% wheat, 10% rye, 10% malted barley.
So with the corn and the wheat, it adds a nice sweetness to it. But then the rye is there to kind of balance that whole thing out. Before it gets [to be] a very sweet bourbon, it balances out, a little baking spice, maybe even some clove, maybe a little black pepper.
Absolutely delicious. But this is a cast finish, not a flavored bourbon. So we’re not adding maple syrup to it. People who drink it might think it’s going to be super sweet and not going to like it. Because they don’t like maple syrup.
This is my version of drinking maple syrup responsibly and not getting diabetes.
After we empty our barrels, we give them to a maple syrup producer in upstate New York. He’ll age his maple syrup using our bourbon barrels.
By doing that through transference, there’s about a gallon of bourbon stuck in the staves of the wood. So when he puts a new liquid in there, that maple syrup is going to absorb into the wood and that bourbon is going to come back out.
Now his maple syrup is picking up that beautiful bourbon flavor and we are picking up all that maple syrup flavor into the wood.
When he brings those barrels back down to us, we put our aged bourbon back in there and we let him finish in there for about three to six months.
After we take the bourbon out, it’s now got this beautiful, mild sweetness, but it’s got that hint of maple syrup at the end.
I always say, I don’t want it to be maple syrup with a hint of bourbon. I want it to be bourbon with a hint of maple syrup, which I think it absolutely is.
Ironclad Missouri Toasted Oak Cask
Joe Winger:
The maple syrup is so subtle, almost a tertiary flavor to it.
This is a double oak bourbon. With double oaking, what you’re going to do is exactly how it sounds.
You’re going to go from one new charred oak barrel. But instead of a second new charred oak barrel, we’re going to go to a lightly toasted barrel.
So my analogy for this is you’re sitting at a campfire and you’ve got a marshmallow. You’re roasting your marshmallow over the flame and it gets burnt. It catches on fire. So now you’ve got that roasted marshmallow where you’re still gonna eat it because it’s a roasted marshmallow.
So you eat it and it’s still sweet. But it’s got that sort of maybe a bitter acrid note just cause you burnt those sugars. You haven’t toasted them.
Now you take another marshmallow. You’re a little more patient this time. You’re going to stick it down in the coals and you’ll slowly rotate it until you’ve got that perfectly golden brown marshmallow.
When you taste it, it’s now twice as sweet because you just caramelize those sugars as opposed to burning them.
It’s the same with a charred oak barrel to a toasted oak barrel. With that charring of those oaks, you’re gonna you’re still gonna have that sweetness. We’re amplifying that sweetness with the toasting of the oak.
With this one you get those softer vanilla flavors like toasted marshmallow. You get a cookie dough flavor, maybe it’s raw cookie dough without the chocolate chips.
Joe Winger:
That’s amazing. mmIs there an extra bottle when I come down there, I’m in the tasting room, another good bottle we should ask for?
Owen King:
Another one that we have right now that is a very limited run. Very small release is our blueberry mead cask finish.
We give our barrels to a meadery in Williamsburg, Virginia and they make this blueberry honey mead. So now they have this bourbon barrel aged blueberry mead. And when they’re done with them, they give them back to us.
You’re not necessarily overwhelmed with [a] heavy blueberry flavor but it opens up to this really nice fruitiness and then like a fermented honey flavor on the front end.
It’s so unique, but it’s great neat on the rocks.
Joe Winger:
If we come down for the weekend, we visit the distillery in Newport News. What’s a tour like?
Owen King:
If people aren’t the biggest bourbon drinker, I want you to walk away saying, “Okay, I found something that is made with bourbon that I like.”
We are a distillery that only makes bourbon.
I want to make sure that everyone who comes here has something they can enjoy. This isn’t an uppity bourbon bar.
I want someone to come and be able to say, I’m not the biggest bourbon fan. What kind of cocktails do you have?” We always have a cocktail on every single menu that’s open for everyone.
Everyone’s going to love it and whether you’re a big bourbon fan or not. We just really want to be accommodating. We want to be a fun place for everyone to hang out.
We want to tell our story, the history of the Ironclad ships. Go through our distillery tour, we’ll show you that. If you want to know the history of Fredericksburg, or the history of What the bed and breakfast is we’ll tell you that.
Nothing pairs better with bourbon than a good story. And we really care about spreading that word.
Joe Winger:
Whether it’s a romantic getaway, a weekend getaway, why choose your bed and breakfast instead of a hotel?
Owen King:
While we’ve only had it a short time. But we’ve been adding things here and there. You’re going to get a fresh orange juice in the morning, made with the oranges that we used for our old fashions [last night].
We have our barrel aged maple syrup for your pancakes. So you’re going to have that maple syrup with a hint of bourbon.
Ironclad Inn
We really drive home that it’s a bed breakfast and bourbon experience. Get immersed in the bourbon culture. That’s our goal.
Joe Winger:
Any favorite bourbon and food pairings?
Owen King:
Bourbon’s wonderful for food pairings.
We’ve gone from pasta pairings to pizza pairings. Anything that’s fatty is a perfect pairing. Pork belly with a cherry reduction over top of it with one of our bourbons straight
We have this bourbon cream, Buzz’s Bourbon Cream, where it’s made with our small batch bourbon that’s infused with coffee beans, cacao nibs, and vanilla beans. That one over vanilla ice cream is perfection.
You’re adding a little booze, some coffee, a little bit of chocolate.
You take a bite and all of a sudden you had three scoops and it’s gone 30 seconds later.
Joe Winger:
What’s the best way to learn more about Ironclad Distillery and Ironclad Inn?
NYC Discover Aphrodise Sparkling Wine, You should taste Before Your next Party, Frank Schilling Reveals
Whether it’s a wedding, party, or just drinks with dinner. We want taste. Maybe we want a few drinks. We also want to protect ourselves from tomorrow’s hangover.
It’s hard to find a drink that can take day to night quite like a Greek rosé and Aphrodise wants to prove it to you.
Frank Schilling, Co-Founder of Aphrodise
Today’s conversation with Frank Schilling from Aphrodise has been edited for length and clarity. For the full, un-edited conversation, visit our YouTube channel here.
Joe Winger:
Our audience is foodies. We’re wine lovers. What’s the most important message today you want to share with an audience of foodies and wine lovers?
Frank Schilling:
I’m an Epicurean myself. I don’t have a lot of pretense around my love of food and wine, I just love great food and wine and I’ve tasted so many great things.
I’m a character who hasn’t had a meal at home in 22 years. As an internet entrepreneur, I used to work, literally seven days a week for many years and eating out was my escape from my work because it’s the one place my laptop and phone couldn’t rule the day, or the moment.
For me, eating out was that escape and that vacation of the moment.
I created a life around dining out probably like many of your listeners or viewers. And I have a deep well of respect for great food and wine and also for the people who admire it and chase it, it’s a, it’s one of the great things in life.
I’m always stunned by people who don’t truly love food. I feel like they’re missing something and leaving part of life on the table.
Discovering Aphrodise sparkling wine
Joe Winger:
You have this new discovery. Let’s talk a little bit about Aphrodise. Tell me about how you discovered the grape varietal?
Frank Schilling:
I’m a wine lover. I tasted my way through Bordeaux and Burgundy.
All the way through, I could never really tell a Merlot from a Cab. I’d be lying to you if I said I knew what a Nebbiolo or a Valpolicella was and how all those grapes differed from each other.
I do enjoy great brands of wine. I do understand the difference between years and what impacts a year.
But when I was building [my restaurant] it was COVID. I was doing some fingertip math and I realized we’re gonna have to start bringing over a lot of sparkling [wine] for mimosas and for brunch. It was 300 seat restaurant, two seatings, 600 seats on a brunch [shift].
You start to do the math and you realize, “Wow, 52 weekends a year, bottomless mimosas. I’m going to need about 3,000 bottles of wine per quarter of champagne. So let’s go out and get some. We live on an island and supply chain management wasn’t really an option.
So we started to taste through different varieties of champagne.
I came to discover what Tom Cruise did in [the movie] “Cocktail”, which is, champagne is like perfume going down, but like sewage on the way back.
It comes from a well meant place, not mean spirited towards the great region of Champagne.
Joining the Aphrodise sparkling wine party
It’s just the nature of Champenois produced wine and that Chardonnay grape that makes a beautiful champagne is such that you just can’t consume a lot of it in the heat or humidity in the sun.
Traditional Champagne vs Aphrodise Sparkling Wine
It just isn’t the type of forgiving libation that lets you function afterwards and you don’t feel good.
The yeast isn’t good for a lot of people. Not everybody’s impacted the same way but, a large portion of the population doesn’t do well with champagne and heat in sunlight as a day drink.
The recovery profile isn’t something that people look forward to.
Aphrodise from the grape varietal called Xenomavro
I discovered that I’d had that problem myself for years. The yeast wasn’t working for me.
So when I discovered Aphrodise, it was a grape varietal called Xenomavro.
A high altitude grape, Greece’s most noble grape.
It’s a very forgiving drink. In a sparkling format, it’s something you can drink in the heat, it’s something you can drink in larger quantities, I can tell you that the recovery profile, for me and for many others, is exceptionally good.
Meaning you can drink a lot of it and bounce back and go again.
As a wine producer, that’s music to your ears. But it’s also nice knowing I’m making people feel better. I’m not putting something in the market that’s going to make you feel sick after overconsumption.
At a party enjoying Aphrodise Sparkling Wine
Joe Winger:
Just to give a little backstory. Frank, I hope you’ll talk to us a little bit about one of your first adventures. You mentioned you’re an internet entrepreneur, you had some success with website domains.
Can you explain a little bit about that and maybe a lesson you learned from that journey?
Frank Schilling:
It’s a lesson that some of your listeners and viewers probably have some experience with.
I registered a domain name back in the dot com era. Then I registered 2 [dot com names], then 10 and I got some generic names like wine.com , cars.com. Names like those.
I started to realize, wow, these names have value.
I wound up registering a lot of generic names and then I had difficulty managing them because in those early days of the Internet, it was all very unwieldy. The infrastructure for managing those names.
So I created a lot of that management infrastructure. Then in the process, grew that business over a 20 year horizon and wound up selling the 3 companies that comprised that enterprise to a company called GoDaddy, which we’ve probably all heard of.
So some of their infrastructure was my infrastructure and is now their infrastructure.
To the extent you like the new GoDaddy offering for managing domain names, you’re welcome, for the small part I played in helping that become a reality.
In the old days, I was traveling a lot. I had an office in Manchester in the United Kingdom, one in Newport beach in California and my main office here in the Cayman Islands. I would travel between the offices, New York, Miami and many other cities, just for work all around the world.
Enjoying Aphrodise Sparkling Wine
At the beginning of COVID that all came to a grinding halt. I sold those businesses and decided that with my love of food, if I was going to stay in the Cayman Islands, I realized I’m gonna have to eat at home more and I realized, the offerings of restaurants wasn’t the depth was hoping for.
So I built the restaurant, as a result of that that then led to Aphrodise.
Joe Winger:
I love the full circle of it.
Since we’ve mentioned the restaurant once or twice. Can we hear more about your restaurant Mykonos Cayman?
Frank Schilling:
Sure. During COVID lockdowns, there was a new plaza going in on the beach and I had mentally designed a restaurant years ago, but sold the real estate for it.
So when I saw the plaza going up, I was crestfallen. These guys built my dream on their land. My fantasy of what a place would look like. But then I was happy to learn that the plaza was a strata titled affair. It wasn’t owned by one conglomerate.
So I bought into that plaza so I could control the real estate. Then once I had the real estate I did a sort of “money no object” fit out that left a very residential-looking restaurant really quite beautiful.
I love the culture of Greece and I love the idea of the long lunch and the lack of pretense in the party and [being] all welcoming, with children, grownups will dance on the table and get really carried away.
The kids are running around. It’s all very loving and family oriented.
Whereas, Ibiza is a little more drug fueled and party, ragey and a little more intense.
I loved the soulful day party of Greece. We’re on an island and the Greeks are on islands. So I thought how nice it would be to bring some of that to my reserved island here in Grand Cayman. Grand Cayman is more of a place you quietly go to escape and enjoy the beach and family.
It’s not really a St. Bart’s where you go to seek out a great party. I always hoped that there’d be room for at least one place like they have in St. Bart’s here.
So I built a really big place, 320 seats, super residential, relaxed, welcoming, But completely devoid of pretense. You can come in, flip flops and shorts, or you can come in a beautiful gown as we’d hope in the evening.
But we don’t have a lot of structure and posture around it. We want you to feel free when you come. So that, I built that venue here, and you can see it online.
It’s called Mykonos Cayman. We have an Instagram where people can learn about the restaurant.
When you come, please come for a glass of Aphrodise on me. Mention Frank said I could have a glass of Aphrodise
Joe Winger:
You introduced Aphrodise at the Las Vegas Wedding Show. How did it go? Why do you think Aphrodise is the best drink to have at a wedding?
Frank Schilling:
It’s the color of love. It’s a beautiful color of red.
We took it to the wedding show because I thought that wedding planners would share the same pain point that I discovered as a restaurateur. Which is, if you want to buy a bottle of great champagne, easy, you go to the liquor store.
But when you start getting up there and you need 100 cases for an event or a series of events, getting that quantity consistently and getting a good product is actually quite difficult. And expensive.
So we thought we’d introduce Aphrodise.
Knowing that we could go directly to the wedding planners and help their fulfillment and execution and deliver a better product.
Something that people could really lavish in the heat or at an after party where you’re really enjoying the bubbly and then feel better in the morning. That was really the goal.
My first champagne experience was at a wedding and I drank a little too much. For the next day or two, I was laid up.
So we try to bring something to market that is good for people or at least makes them feel good in the moment and helps them recover.
We had a line all day. I poured a 5,000 servings of Aphrodise that day. People loved it.
Let me tell you, that’s a lot of work, opening bottles. It looks very glamorous. But when you’re really going at velocity, my hands hurt at the end of the day.
We got a lot of upstart business out of that. People were like, “Wow, this stuff is actually quite good.’
Joe Winger:
Let’s talk about flavor profile.
Pouring out 5,000 samples, what’s the most common feedback we get about the flavor, aroma, the mouthfeel, what are we experiencing?
Frank Schilling:
So when you sip a drink and you talk about mouthfeel or we have a glass of wine or champagne and you have a sip and there’s a little bit of a yeasty, gamey after taste.
For some people in red wine, it can be somewhat desirable.
In champagne, unfortunately it stays with it as well.
When you’re having champagne, which is more of a celebratory libation, that’s not a desirable quality. You want to have something that finishes clean in your mouth.
If you have lots of sips, you’re going to get a good buzz. You want to be able to recover quickly and elegantly without that headache that comes from the yeast and all those elements that bring its flavor.
So the taste of Aphrodise is a very clean mouthfeel and it finishes with a light crisp apple or cherry. Some people taste strawberry.
It’s a small bubble. Very light charmat, produced in small vats, a naturally produced bubbly effect. It lives in tanks for 3 months and it gains its bubbly in a natural way.
A little more expensive to produce that way. Prosecco, for example, will carbonate. They’ll add carbonation just like you would to a can of soda.
We don’t carbonate. We allow the bubbly to form naturally through the fermentation process, which is how it should be.
Co-Founders of Aphrodise Sparkling Wine
Joe Winger:
When it comes to food and wine pairing. What would be your favorite dish to pair with a glass of Aphrodise?
Frank Schilling:
Aphrodise is literally the only thing that I drink, and I’m crestfallen when I can’t find it.
It’s a dark rosé so it goes nicely with meat – a burger or a steak. Chicken or fish. It’s also a great dessert drink.
I like Aphrodise as a warmup libation and as an after dinner, like celebratory drink if you’re having a party, there’s an after party.
Joe Winger:
You’ve done a lot in your life. You’ve had a lot of adventures, a lot of successes.
Any inspiration or lessons you can share with the audience?
Frank Schilling:
The answer is love for people and love for living your best life, love for conviviality. I have a lot of love for the people that I encountered that have helped me in my journey. Those who’ve just been a part of my life, there for a season or there for a reason, as the saying goes, I try to embrace everybody.
See the good in everybody. There are people you click with more than other people. I say yes to everything unless it hurts me. I have a real lust for life and a good energy level.
Joe Winger:
If you’re loving Frank’s energy and his positivity, you wrote an amazing book. Would you mind giving us a summary of the book and what it was like writing it?
Frank Schilling:
It’s called Omnia Vincent: the universe wants you to win.
I wrote the book as I’d sold my businesses. It was during COVID lockdowns and everybody was [going through a] “The end of the world” mood type thing at that time.
You write a book like this for your grandchildren. If one day they want to know more about grandpa and did our success come from or where did our financial wealth come from?
It’s nice for them to know a little about the person who tried hard and maybe you can see something in yourself. So I really wrote it for my future ancestors.
I want to be the guy who left something for the grandkids and great grandkids to understand a little about my brain. And it’s really just written in short micro chapters.
Joe Winger:
Because you’re an epicurean, if you’re going to have any plate for dinner tonight, what would it be and why?
Frank Schilling:
Tonight I’m actually feeling a Pittsburgh style steak, seared on the outside. I haven’t had good red meat in about a week, and we just got some A5 Wagyu at the restaurant Our chef is a butcher and he’s also a certified Angus ambassador. So he gets great cuts.
We do a beautiful short rib burger, which is really lean short rib again on the outside with a bit of a char finish. We have a charcoal grill inside the restaurant, which is beautiful.
Joe Winger:
Thank you so much for your time. If someone wants to learn more, what are the best ways to find and follow websites, social media for Aphrodise?
Frank Schilling:
DrinkAphrodise on Instagram and the website DrinkAphrodise.com
When You have a Higher Calling and Need Media Attention, Reach to Publicity For Good, CEO Heather Holmes explains
Publicity for Good is a millennial run communications firm that provides high-level disruptive, publicity and social media services for wide array of purpose driven clients in the food beverage and beauty industry.
In 2016 by Heather Holmes former miss Ohio international celebrated publicist and Forbes 30 under 30 nominee publicity for good has built a reputation as the countries number one PR agency for CPG brands that have social causes built into their DNA.
Publicity For Food CEO Heather Holmes
Today’s conversation with Heather Homes from PublicityForGood.com has been edited for length and clarity. For the full, un-edited conversation, visit our YouTube channel here.
Joe Winger:
Heather Holmes from PublicityForGood.com. I’m a big fan because you’ve helped us facilitate a lot of previous conversations about food and drink and nutrition and all the things we like talking about.
What’s the most important thing that you want to share with the audience today?
Heather Holmes:
I really want to take away the unknown or worry about getting in the media. I want to make it more accessible to amazing brands and people.
So I definitely want to share tactical advice that if someone is reading this, they have a good story in business, they have the confidence that their story is good enough and they could absolutely make an impact and grow their business by getting in the media.
Joe Winger:
Starting with the basics, let’s pretend I have a company, I think I want public attention. I want to reach out to someone like you.
So what should I be thinking about? What do I present to you as a step one?
Heather Holmes:
Step one is really the intentionality of why you want to get in the media. What’s your goal? Are you wanting to reach more people? Are you wanting to get your story out there?
Are you wanting more sales and more people to buy your product?
You really need to know. Where you’re going first, and if you don’t know where you’re going, or you don’t have a vision, then it’s really hard to help you.
But if you have clarity there, then we can really pull back and help you identify your story, how you’re different, your why, and why your product and or company, would be really great to be in the media.
The PublicityForGood Team
Joe Winger:
Now, looking at the grand scheme of the campaign, what kind of a campaign should we be looking for: expectations, results?
Heather Holmes:
After we know our outcome that we’re wanting to get more sales, more backlinks, or name in the media, then what I like to do first is work with every entrepreneur, and even if you have a product, to really reflect in “why your story matters”
Why does your product matter?
If you’ve never been in the media before, I take people for an exercise where I have them draw on a piece of paper, them as a baby, to where they are now.
I have them write the key pivotal moments that have happened in their life that have made them start that company, because those little components are absolutely a part of your story.
I’ve been in the media 700 plus times: Inside Edition, Fox News, The New York Coast, incredible media, but it hasn’t always been about being a publicist, right?
Yes. I’m the founder of Publicity For Good, but a lot of that has been my story or building a seven figure company from an airstream.
Now I have almost two under two with a third on the way.
So you need to have your key pivotal moments because those are things you can talk about in the media.
Then we need to look at what’s going on in the news and how we bridge the gap between your product. Relevancy.
Joe Winger:
People may not know you are a former Miss Ohio International. Can you tell us a lesson you learned from being a former Miss Ohio International that you’re using in today’s work?
Heather Holmes:
It’s really all about your platform and reaching new audiences.
When I was building my company I decided I wanted to get into pageants. I wanted to meet a community of like minded people that wanted to make a difference in the world.
It was a way for me to have a platform because at the time I was talking about why you absolutely can build a profitable business.But also make a difference in your community and make a difference amongst your team. And really just build an incredible legacy.
So that was why I did the pageants.
I did a bunch of publicity and again, it made me relevant and timely because that was what got me in the media because I was Miss Ohio and I was only Miss Ohio International for a period of time.
So it gave me that relevancy. So you have to be relevant.
You have to bridge the gap between what’s happening in the news, or we often use Awareness Days, National Nutrition Month, National Social Media Day, and you have to position your product or yourself as the solution.
[For example], we were talking about an incredible juice brand, but most pitches I see are very promotional, right? It needs to be how you or your product simplifies people’s lives. How are you adding value? Or you don’t have a product you need to inspire people.
Joe Winger:
You’re growing a 7- figure business. What’s it like growing a huge business while you’re taking care of your kids and for a while you were living out of your Airstream
Heather Holmes:
We lived out of a 23 foot airstream for 3 1/2 years. I went from dating to engaged, to married to [my first child] Rose, who’s almost two, who lived in our airstream with us.
The year the pandemic [hit] was our first million dollar year.
I think a lot of the reason why it was that year is because when March hit, everyone was so scared that we lost about 40% of our business, number one.
Number two, we had to hustle and grit to make it. There was no choice of failing. All the distractions were gone.
When you’re in an Airstream, all you have is your laptop, but we had no external distractions, and then everything else was closed.
So the only focus we could do was our business and we had to scale out of necessity because we didn’t want to lose what we had put so much time in.
Fast forward, we now have 22 acres where we live and we have two under two, we have one on the way, we’re a full time team of 40, and it’s not easy.
I say transparently, it’s a hot mess. There are so many miracles that happen every day, but life is one, right? I can’t turn off my founder hat and publicist hat and then “Oh, I’m a mom”. It’s all one.
So yes, I might have Rose [my daughter] on a call with me from time to time, but I’ve learned that the more you step in and embrace your life, who you are and the realness, sometimes people opt out and that’s okay.
And this is my legacy.
I like these missions that we’re doing good work to us is way more than a business. We want to grow your brand and mission and we take it so seriously.
So it’s not perfect. It’s not perfectly scheduled. I’m a full time mom, all the time on the weekends when the kids are sleeping, we’re working.
We know where we want to go, and these clients and ambitions that we’re aligned with and supporting are helping people with their health.
Joe Winger:
What an incredible story to share.
Heather Holmes: I have so much to share. Like I was adopted when I was a week old to having two under two and another one on the way and building a business and building a homestead.
It’s so crazy. Austin, who’s my husband, the first week we were dating, we’re all about intentionality. I have the journal and we mapped everything out.
This year, we were going to get engaged then married. Austin and I,l we will have been together almost five years.
We’ve had a kid every year. Rose will be two in June.
We want to build a business. We want to impact our clients, brands, and scale their business. We want our team to get better and flourish in their personal lives too.
This is our mission and I’ve seen so many miracles happen from getting in the media on a personal level.
I was talking to [a business owner client] and her business grew by 40% from getting in the media.
One of my favorite cookie brands, a mom had an incredible heart story. She went on our local news and she brought in $12,000 worth of sales, just the local people wanting to support her.
On the flip side, when people Google my name, it’s like my social currency, there’s all these articles. So I have so much peace in that. Our kids will see the good work we’re doing.
Joe Winger:
You’re talking to an audience of foodies. What is your favorite meal?
Heather Holmes:
We just had Indian food last night that my husband made and it was so good.
We used to live in San Diego and I think San Diego has the best food. It’s all fresh. We’ve traveled a lot. We’ve been to Bali, their food is pretty incredible too. Where we live [now] we’re right outside of Asheville and Charlotte. So they have some good restaurants, but like I’m not in the phase right now where I’m the foodie like I used to be.
[At our house] we have chickens and we have fresh eggs. So I’m obsessed with fresh eggs every morning. You’re living a good life when you can go get your eggs and have them at home with some goat cheese.
And honestly, I love Livermuth. Crazy. So I’d say some Livermuth fried in a cast iron with some eggs and goat cheese. It’s the simple things that I really do love.
Joe Winger:
Heather Holmes with Publicity for Good. As we wrap up, whether it’s a potential client, a potential vendor, someone wanting your help with publicity, what are the best ways to find, follow you, websites, social media, etc?
NYC’s Next Flight to Saigon: Tracie May Vietnamese Publicist and Foodie Shines Global Spotlight on Asian Flavor
Tracie May made a name for herself in Los Angeles for 25 years as a luxury publicist and event planner leading hundreds of Opening Night parties, events and red carpets.
Then in an “Eat, Pray, Love” – inspired move, she decided to take a leap and move across the world.
FlavRReport.com on Youtube
In 2020, she relocated to Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam and became the Senior Editor of Epicure Vietnam Magazine, the most prestigious culinary and hospitality publication in Asia.
Today we catch up with Tracie to talk about life in Vietnam. The people, the culture, and of course the food.
Tracie May Vietnamese Publicist Foodie Indulges in Delicious at her role with Epicure Vietnam Magazine
Joe Winger:
What’s the most important thing that you want to share during this conversation?
Tracie May:
Don’t be afraid to take the leap of faith. Honestly, I took a massive leap of faith, uprooting my entire life.
I had a big life in LA. I was there for 25 years, and to take that leap of faith to relocate to Vietnam. It was never even on my radar.
People thought that I was insane when I said I was doing this. It was not supposed to be for the long term. But the whole point is, you never know where opportunity is going to come. You don’t know what your future looks like, until you write your own story.
I am proof positive that anything is possible if you just take a risk for yourself and your happiness, because the energy or the universe will provide for you if you’re truthful, connected and really get specific about what you want.
Tracie May with Chef Eden Daus of Lesung, holding Epicure Vietnam Magazine
Joe Winger:
You are now the senior editor of Epicure Vietnam Magazine. Tell me a bit about the magazine and your role.
Tracie May:
It’s a really beautiful, glossy print publication. They also have online and social [media presence].
It’s available in every VIP lounge, every business lounge at every major hotel, airline and club lounge. It has a lot of subscribers.
Focuses on culinary, luxury travel, hospitality, wine, chef profiles. [Food and beverage] business profiles as well as features on certain resort properties.
I was really lucky to [connect with] the publisher. I sent her a bunch of my writing samples. I joined the magazine about 17 months ago.
My main focuses are editing content, making sure the English is perfect, and dealing with editorial and the marketing teams.
But my favorite part is running the news section. [It’s] basically my curation of what’s hot in [food & beverage] in Saigon and all over the world.
I get to eat the best food all the time.
The majority of the restaurants that we cover are very high-end, gorgeous, [food and beverage] in town. So I get to eat a lot of amazing food which is awesome.
The food in Vietnam is extraordinary.
Joe Winger:
As a USA foodie, what’s a lesson you’ve learned about Vietnamese cuisine that you want the world to know about?
Tracie May:
The biggest lesson that I’ve learned, and it is evident in my extreme weight loss of 75 pounds in 2 ½ years, is it’s whole real food.
They are not jacking up their cows and their pigs with hormones. Organic is actually a thing here. The quality of the food, it’s not processed crap in a box that is run by Monsanto.
Because of the climate here, Dalat, which is the region in Vietnam where most of the produce is grown, some of the most unbelievable tasting produce is grown there.
The fruit is unlike anything you’ve ever tasted.
A watermelon is the sweetest, juiciest, delicious thing you’ve ever put in your mouth; and it’s available from every little fruit stand that is on Quốc Hương.
I walk to my local [stores] because I like to support locals here and have my little bag and pull my produce and all of it is grown on their farm,
It’s just that’s how people eat here. There is no Kraft macaroni and cheese. There is no processed, boxed chemicals here.
Because of that, the quality of the flavor profiles is so superior.
So that is the biggest difference.
The reason why there’s such an obesity problem in the U.S. is the abundance of processed food.
[Here in Vietnam], even fast food. We’ve got McDonald’s and Popeye’s and KFC. But the taste of a Big Mac or a Whopper with cheese is far different than anything you can get in the States because of the quality of the meat that they use.
That is the biggest difference of why Vietnam is so globally recognized as such a foodie hub.
Joe Winger:
You’re doing a lot to bring attention to Vietnam as a foodie hub.
Tracie May:
I was the guest judge on Top Chef Vietnam, and I was the guest judge on the finale of this show called Super Cake, Banh Xeo, which was basically, Build a beautiful cake. And these Vietnamese national TV, reality shows which showcase culinary.
So that was fun.
Joe Winger:
If somebody from the United States comes to Vietnam for a few days, from a food point of view, what must we try?
Tracie May:
Saigon is incredibly vibrant and there’s too much to do. For the best Vietnamese food hands down It is in district one, which is basically the city.
It’s gorgeous. A restaurant with Vietnamese cuisine that focuses on historical dishes from the imperial city of Huế to the north and in Hanoi to the Mekong Delta and is visually stunning.
The flavors are unbelievable. For sure if you want to eat an extraordinary Vietnamese meal, that’s a place, hands down, highly recommended.
In the last 3 months I was introduced to Malaysian cuisine. Spicy, sambal based, chili based. The chef / owner is a fine dining chef, who’s a celebrity chef here. He wanted to get back to his roots and he opened this restaurant that’s very reasonably priced. Fine dining, but in a casual setting, not expensive and truly authentic Malaysian cuisine. All of his grandmother’s recipes and it’s home cooking at its best. That is a must go.
If you love sushi, Noriboi is an extraordinary omakase restaurant in Thảo Điền, in the town where I live. 12 to 18 tastings of caviar, and the best uni flown in from Japan, and extraordinary toro, and you can’t imagine how good, it’s insane.
Joe Winger:
You took a very dramatic pivot a few years ago and it turned out so well.
Tracie May:
I knew that I had to make a change. I knew that I was unhappy. Even though I had great friends and a great life and did really cool stuff in LA, I felt like I was just trapped in a hamster wheel.
I was bit by the “Eat Pray Love” bug.
Decided that, life’s too short to be unhappy.
There is a big, wide, beautiful world out there. Why not explore it while I have the chance?
I happen to have family who live in Saigon, and we conspired together.
I sold my car, put everything in storage, all the paperwork, packed my two dogs and three suitcases and got on a plane.
The original plan was to hang out in Southeast Asia for three months.
Leave my stuff with my family, get a backpack and travel throughout Southeast Asia and go pray with some Buddhist monks. Have my Tomb Raider moment in Angkor Wat in Cambodia and go do a lot of scuba diving. Then three months later, go home [to the United States] and face the music.
But COVID happened, my life shifted. So I stayed.
I couldn’t have imagined a more incredible life that I’ve been able to curate for myself than I have been able to in Saigon.
Tracie May at Tet Lunar New Year 2024 party
Joe Winger:
Your background is a world class publicist in North America. Because of the pandemic, you went from a publicist to a “stay at home mom” figure.
Tracie May:
I did, but I still had to pay my bills, right?
So I had a free place to stay because my family was paying the rent. When [my family] got stuck in the US during COVID, when Vietnam closed their borders, they got locked out for 10 months.
Suddenly I’m a mother to 2 kids in an international school. I’ve got to take care of their three dogs, my two dogs, their villa, all their stuff, in a country that I didn’t know and a language that I didn’t speak.
It was all about pivoting.
At the time I had hot pink hair. All the expat moms, they’ve got kids and they live in a compound because their husbands run Nike or Adidas or…[some huge company]
There’s me, this newbie from LA with my fuchsia hair riding my family’s electric bike with the kids on the back taking them to school.
The [expat Moms are] like, who and what is this?
Originally I became the talk of the town.
I live in a bubble, a little enclave within the city, it’s expat land.
I really think in the beginning I made friends out of total pity. Suddenly they were like, “Let’s take you to lunch.” So there were several luncheons introducing me to society and I created my clan.
The one thing that’s hard about here is that the expat life is very rotational because a lot of the families are on contract.
If you work at the consulate, you’ve got a 2-3 year contract.
Once the contract is done, you’re back home. I don’t want to leave.
So one of the hardest things about making really close friends here is that they leave. So it’s a lot of continual rotation.
I have friends who’ve been here for 14 years up to 35 years who felt the bug like me and decided no, this is where you want to be right now. This is a good place to be, but yeah, that’s basically how it happened.
Joe Winger:
A minute ago, you used the phrase “talk of the town.” Let’s dive deeper.
You’re getting huge growth on social media. Food and dining, lifestyle, travel in this genre. Your face is everywhere. Your voice is everywhere. Your name is everywhere.
What’s it like living your life, when someone sees your face, name and recognizes you?
Tracie May:
It is bizarre.
I have no idea how it happened, especially in Vietnam. Local Vietnamese don’t speak a word of English.
There’ve been so many times that I’m walking my dogs up my street or [I’m] on the back of a “Grab” bike, which is our version of Uber and they see me, look at my picture before and say:
“Sorry, Madame. Are you Madam Tracy?”
And show me a picture of myself.
I’m sure it’s due to doing TV appearances on Top Chef Vietnam and other major, national primetime TV shows here with millions of Vietnamese watching.
It’s bizarre, especially coming from Hollywood where all my focus has always been the promotion of others and the promotion of brands.
Suddenly I’m the [one being] promoted and I just find it really funny. But I’m grateful.
Joe Winger:
How has publicity changed from LA to Vietnam?
Tracie May:
I wear a lot of hats here [in Vietnam]. I’ve become the “go to” event producer.
I was a pretty major event producer in the States and produced [around] 250 fashion shows in three continents around the world, a bunch of parties in LA, and red carpets.
There’s tons of talent in Vietnam. So now I’m doing it for major Western companies who want a sprinkle of American or they want a real Western perspective for [their event], I’m the girl they call.
I’m actually about to produce another event with Sofitel for one of my clients. One of the most talented people I’ve ever met in my entire life, Jerome Peschard.
He’s a French artist with the same story as me, except he got here, fell in love with Saigon and just never left . He met his wife and has a bunch of kids. He has become the most collected artist in Asia globally, for specifically pop art related to historic, historic Vietnamese French and machine and pop art and he does it all. Composite art.
I brokered a deal with Sofitel on June 21 in celebration of the 60 year anniversary of the Sofitel Hotels and Resorts global brand, their Diamond Jubilee.
We are doing a two month installation, exclusive installation of his works being some are 2.6 meters x 1. 5 meters – large scale, which are going to be in the lobby as an installation in collaboration with the hotel.
It’s a massive thing, and they called me, so I’m really honored.
I get to work with him every day and he’s a total rock star.
Tracie May living her best life in Vietnam
Joe Winger:
What’s the theme at this point in your life?
Tracie May:
The moral of the story is “Don’t be afraid to take the leap of faith.”
Joe Winger:
It sounds like you crossed your fingers, closed your eyes and took the jump.
Was there a big concern before taking that jump? How did that big concern work out for you?
Tracie May:
It’s very personal.
The concern wasn’t about work. I knew that I could work internationally. I knew I could do PR online and still service clients abroad. No matter where you are in the world, the cream rises to the top and you will figure it out.
On a personal level in the sense that I have always been a serial monogamist. I had a really petrified, paralyzing fear of being alone.
The idea of being 50 and alone again, scared me. Having to start over again, scared me.
What I’ve learned from that is, I have no problems dating. I have no issue being alone. I actually revel in it because my life is so public now. When I get to be in my underpants, watching Netflix with my two dogs, eating a ham and cheese on freshly baked sourdough baguette with some tomatoes and lettuce; and some truffle aioli from my friend’s company. That’s my happy place.
That has been the biggest lesson that being alone is okay. Being alone is actually a good thing.
I don’t need to have a partner or a marriage to justify and qualify who I am. I’m just fine on my own.
Joe Winger:
What are the ways to find you and follow you online? How do you want people to find you?
NYC Foodies Head to Colorado: Winemaker Ben Parsons from The Ordinary Fellow reveals wine, food and nature
Ben Parsons, Winemaker and Owner of The Ordinary Fellow in Palisade, Colorado
Today’s conversation has been edited for length and clarity. For the full, un-edited conversation, visit our YouTube channel here.
Joe Winger:
Just to touch on background a little bit, you were the winemaker and founder of a very successful urban winery, the Infinite Monkey Theorem.
Then you chose to move on to where you are now at The Ordinary Fellow.
What was that transition like for you?
Ben Parsons:
The Infinite Monkey Theorem was really about disrupting the wine industry and trying to make wine fun and relevant and accessible.
We were the first ones in the U.S. to put wine in the can. We started kegging in 2008.
It was really about creating these urban winery spaces, just a tap room for a craft brewery in a city where everyone could come down and enjoy.
After 11 years of taking that to a 100,000 case production distributed in 42 states, there was a really good opportunity for me to get back to what I wanted to do, which is being in a vineyard.
Even though that might sound like a cliche, there is something quite romantic about farming and being surrounded by nature and really trying to make the very best wine you can from Colorado fruit that you grow and putting it in a bottle versus buying someone else’s wine and putting it in a can, they’re like two very different things.
I had an opportunity to take over a vineyard in southwest Colorado down in the Four Corners just outside of Cortez, where the Four Corners meet.
It was in disrepair and hadn’t been pruned in four years. So I got back in there and now it’s looking really good.
So that’s taken 4 years. Yeah it’s relatively small. It’s 13 acres of Riesling, Chardonnay, Cabernet Sauvignon.
Sits at 6,000 feet elevation. So very high for a commercial vineyard. And it’s beautiful.
It sits on a national monument called the Yucca House, which is an un-excavated ancestral Pueblan ruin from between the 10th and 12th century.
Starts at Mesa Verde, which most people are familiar with for the ancestral cliff dwellings from the Pueblans down there. It’s just a beautiful location.
Yeah, two very different things, but kind of coming full circle almost as to what I got me into the industry in the beginning, back in the late 90s.
And now back there, but doing it on my own.
Palisade Colorado Winemaker Ben Parsons takes a Vineyard Tour
Joe Winger:
Your famous quote in the wine world: “I miss being in the vineyard”
So for our audience, who’s going to go to wine country this weekend or this summer, when they take a vineyard tour, what should they be looking at?
Ben Parsons:
As to how wine gets from a vineyard and a grape to a bottle. Most people think it just ends up on a grocery store shelf and that is not the case.
It’s really the idea that you could grow something from rootstock, farm it, suffer the vagaries of agricultural production, deal with all of those challenges, do it in a sustainable way.
Ben Parsons, Winemaker and Owner of The Ordinary Fellow in Palisade, Colorado
Determine when you’re going to pick that fruit. Take it into the winery. Ferment it. Turn it into wine. Age it in a barrel. Bottle it. Decide on the branding. Decide on the naming. Come up with a label design.
Take it to all of those small awesome restaurants that everyone wants to hang out at because they’re making great food and getting good press.
You see my wine or I see my wine on someone else’s table, drinking it and to think where that came from.
And how many times those grapes got moved from a to b and then back, from b to c and then c to d whether it be like shoveling grapes with a pitchfork for a destemmer.
Or shoveling fermented grapes into a press with a Home Depot bucket.
Or picking that case up and taking it from here to here, that got handled so many times, so much went into that, that I think there’s a huge disconnect amongst most consumers.
Palisade Colorado Winemaker Ben Parsons on the Area’s Natural Beauty
Joe Winger:
You chose to be in Palisade, Colorado making your wine.
Tell us a little bit about the region and why someone should come visit you in Colorado?
Ben Parsons:
Palisade is beautiful. It’s on the Western slope of Colorado. It’s about a 4 hour drive West of Denver over the mountains.
About 4 1/2 hours East of Salt Lake City.
It’s an American Viticultural Area designate called the Grand Valley and it’s pretty stunning.
You come through this Canyon called the Back Canyon on the North side, you have these book cliff mountains that rise above you on the South side, you have the Colorado River, and it’s a very niche microclimate. It’s definitely an agricultural community.
What a lot of people don’t realize, because they just drive straight past on I-70 is it’s proximity to all things good, outdoorsy.
Within 28 minutes I could be at a local ski resort called Powderhorn. It got 32 feet of snow last year
I’m an hour and a half from Aspen.
I’m an hour and 20 minutes from Moab.
I’m a 10 minute drive from Fruita, which has the best mountain biking in the world.
It’s all old Indian territory. There’s wild mustangs up on the book cliffs.
It’s known for its fruit. It’s actually known for its peaches, believe it or not. Some of the best peaches grown anywhere in the United States. Arguably the best.
But it’s a very small microclimate.
Palisade is around 4,500 feet elevation. There’s about 26 wineries you can tour and visit. Take a few days, spend a weekend.
There’s some good local restaurants, growing their own produce and making real good farm to table food.
Grand Junction is a city that in the last 5 years has really exploded.
And Grand Junction is 10 minutes from Palisade. It went through a series of boom and busts during the oil shale boom business back in the day, but now it’s strongly focused on tourism.
Lots of people are leaving the front range of Denver, Colorado Springs and moving to the Western slope for a kind of quality of life.
Also we have a lot of California transplants because it is cheaper to live. You are outdoors all the time. You can travel long distances very quickly. I put 42,000 miles on my car this year delivering wine all over the state of Colorado.
I feel like the state and this particular area has a lot going for it. Definitely more than enough to fill a long weekend or a week’s trip.
Taking a trip to Moab, it’s really pretty. It’s one of the reasons I moved here.
I’d been in the city for a long time. I grew up just South of London in England, but I lived in London for some time and I loved it when I was young. I love Denver as well.
When I started the Infinite Monkey Theorem, that was really when a lot of people were moving to Denver and it was becoming something substantial.
It was one of the fastest growing cities in the country at that time.
I feel like we were a big part of pushing that growth and in tandem with the other food and beverage scene, like craft breweries and good restaurants.
Joe Winger:
You’ve mentioned different restaurants and food and dinner. Our audience primarily are foodies.We’re in Colorado for a wine weekend, we come to the Ordinary Fellow for a wine tasting.
Can you suggest a few places and different cuisines that are a must visit within 20-30 minutes of you?
Ben Parsons:
In Palisade there’s a good restaurant called Pesh. One of the former line cooks at a linear in Chicago started it with his wife, maybe 5-6 years ago. It’s excellent.
In Grand Junction, where most people stay there’s a few good restaurants started by this guy, Josh Nirenberg, who has been nominated for James Beard award several times for best chef and has one called Bin 707, Then he just opened a third called Jojo’s. He also has a kind of trendy taco spot called Taco Party, which is a fun name.
If you like craft cocktails, there’s a new place that opened called Melrose Spirit Company. Guy opened it in a hotel that was recently renovated. Really cute, really excellent cocktails.
Joe Winger:
Let’s get into the wine geek stuff now and talk about your vineyards. You have Colorado Box Bar, Hawks Nest.
So let’s talk through terroir, soil type, elevation.
Ben Parsons:
So Box Bar, It’s in Cortez, sits around between 6,000 feet elevation.
It’s on this weatheral loam that has some clay in it, which has these water retention properties. It is essentially a desert. So you do have to drip irrigate, there’s less than 7 inches of precipitation a year.
So very little rainfall which is good in some ways in that there is very little disease pressure.
You’re not having to spray. There’s no necessity to spray for powdery mildew or anything down at our vineyards.
It’s essentially farmed very minimalistically.
Lagging very sustainably, which I know people appreciate.
Riesling, Cabernet Sauvignon, Chardonnay. We’re just planting some Chenin Blanc and some Charbonneau, which is an italian red varietal as well.
Hawk’s Nest is not my own property, but I work with a grower called Guy Drew who planted four different kinds of Pinot Noir and two different kinds of Chardonnay there.
That vineyard is at 6, 800 feet and that is the highest commercial vineyard in North America.
Similar soil properties as the Box Bar. Making some really good Pinot Noir.
I think what’s interesting about Colorado is we have a very short growing season, 155 – 165 days. Napa has 240 days. That’s frost free days.
So the thing is that we have such high sunlight exposure because of the elevation and the ultraviolet light that we have the same number of degree days as Napa Valley. So we can ripen like Cabernet Sauvignon, but we’re ripening it in a shorter period of time. That’s fairly unique.
The Ordinary Fellow is really focusing on traditional French varietals from Chenin Blanc Chardonnay, Cabernet Sauvignon, Syrah.
Most recently we took over a vineyard in Utah so I’m actually farming a vineyard about 1 ½ hour drive from Moab called Montezuma Canyon Ranch.
That’s this ancient sandstone with a little bit of clay in there that was planted in 2007. 12 acres of Chenin Blanc, Merlot, Riesling Chardonnay. We made an awesome Utah Rosé vineyard last harvest 2023, which we just released.
You don’t see that many wines from Utah so that’s why I’m excited about it.
I think there’s only 6 wineries in Utah and I’m not sure that many of them get their fruit from Utah.
Joe Winger:
You mentioned that you have one of the highest peak elevation commercial vineyards in North America.
What are the benefits and the disadvantages to such a high elevation?
Ben Parsons:
If you think about spending any time on a mountain, it can be really warm, but as soon as the sun goes down, it gets very cold.
So having high elevation vineyards, even though you might be in a quite a hot growing region as soon as the sun goes down, the temperature does drop.
You have a large diurnal temperature shift.
So in Cortez, in the growth, during the growing season or during ripening, say late September, mid September, late September. We could be 85 to 90 in the day, but 45 to 50 at night, which is a really big temperature swing.
It basically means that the vine has a kind of chance to just shut down and rest.
From an enology perspective, you can retain more natural acidity in the fruit because it’s not being metabolized by having a lot of sunlight constantly and higher temperature. So we don’t have to make any artificial acid additions or anything like that you may have to do in more established wine regions in the United States.
Our wines all have really great balance to them and really good acidity. None of them are overdone. They’re not big, jammy, overly alcoholic.
They’re all well balanced between acids, tannin, alcohol, sugar, but they’re all bone dry.
There is no fermentable sugar in any of them, which leads to palate weight and mouthfeel, but but they’re not sweet per se.
Even my Riesling is bone dry.
Joe Winger:
During the Infinite Monkey Theorem days you led the canned wines movement.
How does it feel seeing it become so incredibly popular and any big lessons you learned from that experience?
Ben Parsons:
I genuinely believe that [we led with canned wines]. In 2009 we entered into a R and D project with Ball Corporation, the largest supply of aluminum cans in the world.
To figure out how to can wine and everyone thought it was stupid and everyone just turned their noses up at it and thought that RTD wine and RTD drinks were stupid.
It’s a tough question because I think that canned wine is good because of its use application, primarily. Where you can take it and where you can drink it.
Now, very rarely do I see people putting the best wine they’ve ever made in a can. So I think it’s all about where you want to drink it, who you want to drink it with. There’s definitely this kind of utility aspect to it.
Also price point wise, you don’t see that many canned wine, four packs above $16,
I would say so. Yeah, price wise, it’s fairly economical from a sustainability perspective. It makes a lot of sense.
But from an absolute quality perspective, you’re probably still going to be buying bottled wine over canned wine.
It’s all about where you’re going to consume it.
Sometimes when I see it I think about when you start any category, there’s always those people that are out there doing it way before anyone else is doing it. It’s those people that usually don’t reap the benefits of it because they put all of the effort into it.
I look at LinkedIn occasionally and I’m just baffled by people that think that it’s a new thing. It just blows my mind.
Joe Winger:
You have an excellent sparkling wine and you’ve mentioned England’s excitement about the sparkling.
Why is England falling in love with sparkling wine? And why should all of us be falling in love with sparkling wine?
Ben Parsons:
Historically, England has consumed a lot of sparkling wine.
But in terms of actually growing grapes and making their own sparkling wine, that’s happened in the last 20 years.
That’s one of those unfortunate advantages of global warming in a kind of isolated geographical area that previously, you wouldn’t have been able to ripen Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Pinot Meunier.
It would have been a challenge making really good sparkling wine in Kent and Sussex and Southeast England where a lot of it is made.
But with a few degrees temperature rise, that’s now possible. And it’s the same chalk escarpment as champagne. They’re very close to each other.
They’re just separated by 24 miles of the English Channel, right?
So they’re actually geographically very close to each other a little further than 24 miles, but climatically very similar.
So actually, a lot of French champagne houses have bought up land in Kent and Sussex over the last 20 years and have been planting that, and now some of the bubbles are coming out.
Joe Winger:
When I have an opportunity to speak with an Oregon winemaker, we often talk about the challenges based on their region. Do you feel like you are also in a region [Colorado] that’s more problematic?
Can you share a lesson you’ve learned from solving some of those problems?
Ben Parsons:
The whole industry because of the shortness of the growing season, it’s always on a knife edge because you can have late spring frosts that can come through a bud break and just wipe you out.
But you can also have these freak-like early winter freezes in October where there’s there’s still fruit hanging or maybe it’s just come off and it goes from 70 degrees in the day to 8 degrees suddenly, and the sap still flowing in the vines and then all of the vines, the trunks split, the cordon split.
That’s what happened in Palisade maybe 3 or 4 years ago now.
Then in Cortez where Box Bar is, last year we had a hailstorm come through just after the bud break. So our Chardonnay was out and got wiped out. Then the secondary buds pushed and we went from a crop of 36 tons to 10 tons overnight.
That’s just agriculture anywhere. Unfortunately that’s just one of the risks.
Joe Winger:
Let’s talk about wine. Their flavor profiles. The different bottles you offer.
When we come visit your tasting room in Palisade, Colorado any hints about what they should be excited to taste?
Ben Parsons:
Blanc de Noir
Yeah the sparkling wine, that’s Blanc de Noir, so that’s 100% Pinot Noir. That’s about as geeky as it gets, because that’s single vineyard, single grower, single clone of Pinot Noir. only 8 months in barrel. The base wine was barrel aged for about 6 months, and then it was entourage, lying on its utilise in a bottle for six months.
Then it’s put on a riddling rack and hand riddled one bottle at a time. Then disgorged by hand, just take the top off, put your thumb over the top of it so nothing comes out and then no dosage.
So again, just super geeky, like really bone dry, like really crisp, great acid. So that is that wine is super hands on.
It’s delicious. It still gets those more developed, brioche-y notes. Texturally it’s very pleasing on the palate. I think we make really good method champignons, bottle fermented sparkling wine.
Chardonnay
A lot of people these days think it’s trendy to not like chardonnay, because they heard somewhere about that, but there are actually some really good Chardonnays out there, which aren’t all aged in new French oak and haven’t all gone through like a creamy buttery secondary fermentation. And I think mine is one of them. It was aged in 8 year old barrels. So there’s really no influence on it at all.
It’s all hand harvested or whole cluster pressed. I think that wine has a really pretty texture, like this palette coating texture but it has really good acidity and it smells like a ripe peach or a dried apricot. It’s really pretty.
Pinot Noir
Our red pinot noir. Again that spent just 9 months in neutral barrels so I think there was a trend like 20 years ago to put everything in a brand new barrel and every winemakers thought it was cool, but you know in the last 5 – 6 years, I think that has changed
Winemakers are really trying to let the soil and let their vineyards speak for themselves.
Minimal kind of intervention to a certain extent. It is the trend.
Our Pinot Noir has done really well. It’s on the much lighter side. I would say it’s more like a German style Pinot Noir, like lighter with really good acidity, firm tannin. Beautiful aroma.
I think all of our wines are just very well balanced. Very food friendly, very clean. They’re not funky. I’m very proud of that.
Joe Winger:
I’m assuming balance and the clean is a style choice by you?
Ben Parsons:
Balance is easy because it’s done in the vineyard because of the elevation and the retention of acidity. It’s just about when you pick it. So you’re tasting [the grapes] for flavor and like phenolic ripeness and the seeds being brown, et cetera, but you’re also testing a few for your pH, your titratable acidity and your sugar levels. Then you make an informed decision as to when you’re picking it.
The cleanliness part of it really just comes down to the fact that I feel like winemakers, even though this doesn’t sound very romantic, you’re almost just like an insurance manager in that you don’t want to mess it up.
So you make informed decisions, preemptively. You top your barrels, like every 2-3 weeks, you do things to make sure the wine, does not end up flawed through a secondary characteristic developing.
Sometimes that’s a flavor enhancer and sometimes that’s good, but when it’s overdone… I believe there are a lot of wines that they get away with it these days. To me it’s just bad winemaking.
I’m definitely kind of a minimal interventionist
Joe Winger:
I always feel like white wine doesn’t get enough love and respect. People love talking about the complexities of reds. You make a phenomenal Riesling.
Ben Parsons:
Interestingly I really don’t drink red wine anymore. Occasionally I’ll drink some Pinot Noir, but I much prefer drinking white wines. I think a lot of people in the industry crave acidity, and yeah, my reasoning is a good example.
The general consumer in the U. S. still thinks that all raisins are sweet. I think that’s just a common misconception, that’s purely a stylistic choice from the winemaker, and my choice is to allow the yeast to ferment all of the sugar until there is no residual sugar.
To have a wine with high natural acidity that pairs well with food. That’s my choice as a winemaker. Those are the wines that I enjoy most that kind of just leave your palate just like this rasping acidity. Take the enamel off your teeth, and but have beautiful aroma.
Our Riesling is starting to show some characteristics from being in the bottle for 18 months. Where it gets those kind of, it’s tough to say about making it sound bad, but those more kerosene-y , kind of petroleum, kind of eraser like notes, which are very typical of Riesling, intertwined with really nice citrus and green apple.
Yeah, and like really just good structure. That benefits from growing at elevation here for sure.
Joe Winger:
Petit Verdot is probably lesser known, less popular, but it deserves all the love anyway.
Ben Parsons:
Petit Verdot, interesting, like one of the six red Bordeaux grape varieties. Bordeaux is maritime climate. It’s much cooler than Colorado.
It doesn’t really get the chance to ripen as well as it does here. So when it can ripen, it doesn’t just need to get blended into Cabernet Sauvignon or something to just give it more tannin and more structure.
Here it can stand alone as a single varietal.
The greenness is gone. The tannin is not like just rip your face off tannin. It’s well developed. Like silky, velvety, firm, but not like really dry and like Petit Verdot can be. Aromatics are very lifted on it, and it’s not a massive red wine by any means.
That’s grown at a vineyard about half an hour from Box Bar called Canyon of the Ancients and that vineyard was planted in 2006.
Unfortunately we only made about 99 cases of that wine. It’s fun to introduce people to wines that they probably haven’t heard of, but wines that that can stand up to any good red wines that you may have heard of.
Palisade Colorado Winemaker Ben Parsons reveals his Favorite Food
Joe Winger:
Do you identify yourself as a foodie? Can you pick 1-2 of your bottles and your favorite dish for dinner tonight?
Ben Parsons:
Yeah I would definitely pair my Riesling with a Thai curry or even a panang curry. I think it does really well with oriental food that has some level of heat to it. But also I think it does really well with a charcuterie plate, some almonds and some cheese. I think you can’t go wrong with that.
Then my Petit Verdot, for example I think there is more tannin in there. For those of us that like the light grilling you couldn’t go wrong with serving that with a ribeye. It’s delicious. Or if you’re cooking a little heartier food in the winter, maybe a lasagna. Something that can really work with that tannin.
I think my wines do well with a lot of different food just because of the balance that they have, they’re not going to overpower the food and vice versa, which is what it’s all about.
But I also enjoy them, just having a glass on its own, to be honest. When I get home from work, sometimes I love that.
Joe Winger:
I’m watching your Instagram videos quite a bit, and it seems like you’re having a lot of fun sharing knowledge, showing your vineyard, showing what it’s like day to day.
Ben Parsons:
The one time that I do enjoy social media is when you’re in the vineyard or you’re doing something that seems that other people might never have seen before.
I’m in awe of where I am because I feel like it comes across in those videos. It’s pretty down here today, and those are beautiful vineyard sites.
Or if you’re filtering a wine or racking a wine or, trying or shoveling grapes.
Just the imagery comes across and really shows how much work is involved in it. I always struggle when it’s like go take a photo of a bottle of wine in front of a restaurant. I don’t know how you make that look cool.
Dating Expert Andrea McGinty makes it easy with 33000Dates.com
Today we’re going to get to the source of what those date’s are actually about. So with us is a dating expert, Andrea McGinty from 33000dates.com.
Joe Winger:
So just to start things off, what inspired you to become a dating coach?
Andrea McGinty:
You mean what inspired an accounting / finance major to become a dating coach?
I started this when I was in my 20s. So this is the 1990s.
There’s no Google yet. There’s no online dating. It’s going to happen in the late 90s, but it hasn’t happened yet. At that point I was living in Chicago and I was getting married and five weeks before the wedding, he called it off and it was like – boom!
What do you do? First I cried, of course…
Anyway my friends started fixing me up on dates, still in your 20sand you know how those dates go,
They know someone that’s single, so they think you should like them, blah, blah, blah…
After some of those dates I was really thinking about it and I thought, it’d be great if there was a place you could go, like an executive recruiter for your professional life.
The same thing for your personal life.
And of course, there was nothing like that at the time. Even in high school and in college I fixed up two of my suitemates. They’re still with their husbands that I fixed them up with.
I was already good at this and I thought I could start this.
Anyway, fast forward.
I started a company in Chicago called It’s Just Lunch. Where people meet for lunch. We do all the work.
Fast forward, 15 years later, it’s still the same.
[At my first dating company, It’s Just Lunch] we had 110 locations globally and then I sold. Timing was perfect because online dating was coming out of its infancy and it was a mess it at first, just the scammers, the crazies, the horrible stories,
I thought, “Oh, wow, there’s a need. People have no idea what to do online and how to date.”
Dating Expert Andrea McGinty makes it easy with 33000Dates.com
Joe Winger:
Is there one big lesson to learn how to be more successful with dating in today’s world?
Andrea McGinty:
I think there’s a couple, there’s probably two lessons to learn.
#1 is you need to understand how to navigate online dating because there’s over 1400 sites out there.
#2 you’ve got to be really careful that you don’t give up too quickly.
Most people give up in the first 2-3 weeks because they go online, see a bunch of people, they probably went on the wrong site by the way too, like not the right site for them at all. Then they see these people who like them and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, this is online dating, forget it, I’m done, gone.”
And it goes back to they didn’t do it right, they had no idea what they were doing.
Joe Winger:
Can you bring some clarity to that and help somebody understand what are the first few steps are and how to do them correctly?
Andrea McGinty:
Absolutely. With online dating you need…
#1 you need to be really careful that you’re choosing the right site.
When we’re talking about 1,400 sites out there, I tend to work with the top 25 sites. When I’m working with a client I start initially with a zoom call with a client and get to know them what they’re looking for.
I work primarily with the 40 – something 50- something, through the 60s age group. Second time around, second acts in life type of thing.
Back to the right site…
When I’m choosing a site for a client after the zoom call, I’m thinking about. “Okay, what sites do I think they belong at?” And it’s very different if you’re in Los Angeles versus Houston versus Washington versus New York City or Orlando, Florida.
[The sites are] so different, how the sites function and the type of people that are even on the site.
I’m strategic too. I use three different large companies for research. I use Gallup, Pew and Statista. I pay to get research on a monthly basis and it really tells me the percentage of men to women on a site.
Some sites that are 80% men. Some sites are 80% women
You might be having an awful time on a site because you’re a woman and you’re at a site that’s 80% women. You’re in the wrong place.
So I do the homework with the research. Geographically where you live, level of education, income. Is that site’s membership increasing, decreasing?
#2 Your pictures.
Oh my gosh. I’m like a crazy person with photos because you have to have really great photos. I don’t mean LinkedIn photos, I don’t mean glamour shots, and not selfies.
The candids are nice because it’ll show you and your friends. Out playing pickleball, out playing tennis, out having drinks with your girlfriends. The professional shots. Depending on where you live, you’re just gonna get some great shots up against a graffiti wall in Brooklyn or a nice shot by the beach that are just a little more.
You want a couple full body shots.
You want the photos to be current, within the last year. Just like you don’t want to be surprised when you show up on the date and there she is. She has a few more wrinkles and a few more pounds than what I saw online.
It’s like you’re not being truthful about the whole thing.
Online dating is a visual medium. You’ve got to be presenting yourself. My LA and Orange County market, Dallas market, they get that. But there’s other parts of the country. I’m like no, we are not putting that picture of you online. There is absolutely no way.
#3 Your profile
Once they look at your photos online, if they like what they’re seeing, they’re going to read about you. It can’t be the same old stuff. Like I like to walk on the beach and I look as good in a tux as I do…. it puts me to sleep.
So a short, sweet, interesting, quirky profile sells.
A lot of times it’s hard to write about yourself. That’s why it’s nice to have somebody like me, write about you.
[Summarizing] You’re on the right site. The right photos. Your profile. Now it’s looking through high potential dates for you….
#4 Looking for High Potential Dates
Putting in algorithms, putting in search filters. That’s something I teach people how to do because otherwise it’s like you’re looking for a needle in a haystack and you want it like a needle in a little Easter basket.
Once we throw those filters and algorithms on, it gets rid of 80% of the people. Now we’re down to some of these people that look like high potential people for you.
#5 Send messages
We found 10 “someone” ‘s and now we send messages.
We don’t send them a weak heart or any of that kind of junk because men get so irritated. Because half my clients are men, they get so irritated with this.
Why are these women sending likes and hearts and no message?
That’s my constant battle with women.
Hey, you’re in your 40s, you’re not 90 when women had to wait to be pursued. We’re not living in our grandparents era, right? We’re equals. We can reach out to the men too.
The men totally appreciate when a woman sends a well crafted, interesting, short three sentence message.
The messaging is super important because you don’t want the: “Hi, how are you?” – or this is horrible. “Hi, you’re so good looking.” “Hi, you’re so beautiful.”
It was like, copy paste, they threw that out to the world, they sent that to everybody.
So now you’ve sent a message, hopefully he / she messages back.
#6 Schedule a date
The next thing is let’s get that date scheduled. This can all be done with just a couple texts on both people’s part:
“Okay, yeah, I’m totally interested. How’s Friday, at 5:30p at Bistro 110. Let’s meet for a glass of wine?
Because chemistry only takes place in real life.
Joe Winger:
In reality, do most dates get set up that quickly? It seems like there’s more delays and game-playing?
Andrea McGinty:
From the time you first send a message to someone, if the date has not been scheduled within five days of that initial text. There’s a 90% chance the date will never occur.
I’ll say to my client, “We’re going to go right for it right now.”
Write a couple of cute lines that are just for that person and then be like:
“You know what? I don’t really need to text you anymore or talk to you anymore because I’m ready to meet you. I’m super interested. How’s Friday night…?”
Sometimes you’ll get back a reply, what’s the rush?
I think to myself, what isn’t the rush here?
What do you want to talk about? Can’t you just get dressed?
We both live in Beverly Hills for goodness sakes. How long would it take us to get together and meet, right? We’re both in New York City. C’mon. Let’s do this in person.
If you’re getting those people that are drawing out the process, you either just cut bait. Just block them, goodbye, gone.
Or you say, you know what, if you don’t reply, you’re going to end up on my waiting list.
And you do it with a little humor, add an “LOL”
That can work too, where people crack up and they’re like, yes, I would love to meet you Saturday. Let’s grab lunch.
Joe Winger:
In today’s world of different levels of politically correct, cancel culture, different levels of sensitivity, regardless of whether you’re in a very conservative culture, progressive culture, etc.
How do we deal with any level of uncomfort when it comes to online dating?
Andrea McGinty:
First of all, you’re not in the workplace dating right now. Cause that’s where a lot of that happens, right?
This is where I say “Women, you’ve got a big advantage right now because you can feel very comfortable and free reaching out to men and get over that whole thing”.
Women wait to be pursued. There was this book that came out in the 90s: “The Rules.”
Wait to be pursued by the man and then don’t respond to him for three days. What the heck is that about?
No. Reach out to men.
Now for men, you’re not going to send stupid messages like, “Oh, you’re so gorgeous and sexy and blah, blah, blah”
Nobody wants that message.
You would find that offensive too.
As far as men reaching out to women, just do it in good taste.
Women are there to meet men. Creepy doesn’t happen very much online anymore. We’re out of that 2000 – 2010 era where more of that stuff happened.
There’s so many more hoops. Both parties jump through [hoops] on top notch dating sites now and dating apps now that verify that you are who you say you are and verify some information about you.
Joe Winger:
Most of the people watching this, they’re into food. That means fine dining. They’re into wine and cocktails and collecting wine.
What kind of a goal can they look for if they come to 33000Dates.com?
When they approach and connect with you, what should they be thinking about and preparing so they know how to best represent themselves in that first conversation with you?
Andrea McGinty:
Just be real with me and, people that are foodies and wine collectors, there’s a lot of us out there. There’s a lot of people out there that will find that very attractive.
There’s a lot of people that like to try different wine bars, they like to go up to Napa. Maybe that’s your third or fourth or eighth date,
Be real with what your interests are and… talking about food.
This goes back to when I’m writing your profile, when people just say, “Oh, I like Italian food.” I’m like no. Give me something here.
“I like carbonara with peppers and from Trattoria is amazing.”
It doesn’t have to be written in a snobby or snooty way, but it’s just like fun. Like you’re describing what you like to eat or your favorite foods or it could be talking about, you like this vintage of wine.
Be very specific with me because that’s how I can help you the most and be really upfront no, no PC woke stuff with me because this is your personal life.
Joe Winger
What are some realistic goals for your online dating experience?
Andrea McGinty:
We’ve got to make sure that we’re not listening to all the noise out there. We’re not listening to our negative friends about dating and friends and family can be two really negative forces because you get one of one of two things.
If it’s family, maybe a lot of them are married and they’re like, Oh, you’re good looking. You’re so awesome. You don’t need to do online dating. That is like for losers.
That is so not the story anymore.
You’ve got friends that are like, “Oh, I just tried Bumble. It was horrible”. “I did hinge. It was horrible.”
A lot of dating is going in with a good attitude. I’m not talking about rainbows and unicorns; and everything’s perfect or anything like that.
We spend a lot of our 20s and 30s becoming successful and working on our careers.
By the time we’re 40s, even 50s we’re there career-wise. So now, it’s time to focus on our love life.
That could be two very different pictures: it could be a second act because you’re divorced.
Or it could be you’ve been single and just all your efforts have been going into career and friends and travel and all this other stuff, good stuff you’ve got going on.
But you wake up one day and you’re like:
“Hey, I’m 45 and I’m single. What’s up with this?”
Go into online dating, approaching it the way you did your career. Strategically. It’s no fun to think about your love life, like strategically, hire somebody, think about how you play golf.
You didn’t just go out on the golf course. You took a bunch of lessons.
Everybody’s playing pickleball now. But you didn’t just go out on the court, even if you played tennis before. You took a couple clinics, right?
That very quickly threw you into the intermediate range all of a sudden because you put some effort into it.
Same with dating.
But if you want to do it effectively and pretty effortlessly, just like you did with golf, hire the pro to do this stuff for you.
My typical male client tells me I take 80% of the workload off him because he doesn’t have to think about it anymore.
I’m coming up and presenting ideas to him, presenting women to him and just getting them through. All of the hoops and the messaging and all that stuff. Getting them to the good dates because they’re out there.
There’s some markets, like Los Angeles and New York, that can be big complainers about dating. I think because they’re trying to do it on their own.
When I get online and go on the good sites in those two markets, there are so many good people on there.
It’s just a matter of having somebody doing a good portion of the work and pushing you.
And oh, here’s the other thing, accountability.
When you’re working with me, you have accountability because you’re going to talk to me next week. And I’m going to say:
“Okay, Tell me what happened to you last week.”
“How’d that date go?”
“Did you call back that other one that we talked about?“
I did text her after the date you said you were going to, what happened?
So that little push along the way and keeping you on track too.
Because we’re in a culture where, we’re educated, we’re taking great trips, we’re dining out. We’ve got a nice group of friends that we love to hang out with.
It can be really easy to sweep this all, to the wayside. There’s no reason because there’s a loneliness epidemic in the U.S. and we all know if you’re with somebody, that you really enjoy hanging out with you’re going to live longer and you’re gonna live happier too.
Right.
Joe Winger:
You’re offering great dating tips. Thank you.
Let’s say you’re someone who’s done the work on your protile, messaged all those people, asked for a date, and they’ve all disappeared.
What’s that person doing wrong?
Andrea McGinty:
You kinda gotta take responsibility for it. You’re doing something wrong.
Here’s the deal. You don’t know what you’re doing wrong.
But that’s stuff I can fix.
That’s another thing. You have to stay away from those free sites or sites that have free people on it because there’s no skin in the game there. They’re just dilly-dallying around, playing around on there and not really serious.
Part of it is recognizing the statistics that you’re going into up-front that for every 5 texts you send, 1 person is going to respond back.
I give my clients homework on a weekly basis, two sessions. That’s all I ask of them.
During those two 30 hour sessions they have to send out 8 messages. So I know by the time I’ve talked to them, they’re going to at least have gotten back 3 responses.
If their photos are really good, they might have 8 responses back.
If they haven’t already booked the date, craft the email, craft the text, craft the message that’s going to get that date in person. And get us there. Get us there.
Joe Winger:
Andrea McGinty from 33000Dates.com dating expert.
Any requests from the audience watching and listening?
Andrea McGinty:
I would just say, take a look around my site, maybe take the dating quiz that I have on the site. It’s fun. And it’s really fast. It’s 10 questions, and it goes right to me. It doesn’t go to any of my people. And. I can rate you and what you’re doing and tell you whether or not I can help you too.
So if you do take that quiz, give me as much info as you can. I don’t mean personal info, but like where you live, your age, but that’s all going to be on there. But take that quiz because that’s a good way to contact me and see if we might be a good fit and maybe I can help you if you really want to meet somebody.
NYC Demands Better Coffee, They Traveled the world to find it, Dr Christina Rahm from Rahm Roast Coffee
Today we’re talking coffee! The rich and delightful taste of Rahm Roast, crafted from carefully selected coffee beans straight from Guatemala.
Dr. Christina Rahm is a scientist, supermom, devoted partner, and the ultimate coffee aficionado!
With a passion for detoxing and a mission to uplift lives, she’s not just about the lab coat life; she’s out there exploring the globe in pursuit of both science and the perfect cup of joe.
Today’s conversation has been edited for length and clarity. For the full, un-edited conversation, visit FlavRReport’s YouTube channel here.
Joe Winger:
So what I love the most is your introduction, Dr. Christina Rahm, “Mother. wife, scientist and coffee lover.”
Dr. Christina Rahm:
Thank you. Yeah I always start with mother. Now my kids are older. I’m like, am I supposed to say mother to adult children? They were such an integral part of my life. And hey, that was the reason I started drinking coffee. Just to be honest, I had to stay awake to take care of them.
Joe Winger:
Do you remember what first inspired you to get interested in coffee?
Dr. Christina Rahm:
Motherhood, basically..
I grew up in a home where everybody loved coffee but me. I remember when I had my 1st child, and I was thinking, how do all these mothers stay awake?
I worked back then too. It was a lot, working and taking care [of my first baby].
I was delusional because I thought I’m going to have my son, and I thought, I’ll go back to work on Monday. Cause you don’t know. I remember that Monday getting up and calling my mom and saying, “This is not doable. What am I going to do?”
I had a job where they let me take him to work, but still it was a lot. And my mom was like, you’re going to have to drink coffee.
I grew up on a farm and they would offer it and I’d be like, no, I don’t like it. I was the only one in my family that didn’t like it, but I learned to love it after I had a child.
Then I three more [kids]. But I love the taste of it.
Also, as a scientist, I had a pituitary tumor and different types of cancer.
When I started researching, you can’t ever claim that a natural substance cures anything, but I did notice there were certain types of coffee and coffee beans that caused cancer cell death, apoptosis.
So it was one of the things that I added to my regimen.
What happened was, the cancer metastasized and I was trying to eat everything from spirulina to coffee to resveratrol.
I did give up alcohol for a while.
Then someone said one glass of alcohol is good because of the resveratrol.
So I added wine back in [to my diet].
But like I learned to love [coffee]. The more I researched it, the more I understood that it had mold and mitotoxins and it had all kinds of things.
Even though the pure bean could help from a physical perspective and from a healthcare perspective because of the pesticides and GMOs in the land, air and water that we have.
I hate bringing up the topic because people [think] the environment’s not that bad.
The problem is, regardless of your political stance, our environment is not healthy like it used to, because we’ve had so much pollution/
Nuclear war and when a nuclear war happens, it does not leave the stratosphere.
It disseminates across our world.
So a our things – plants and herbs and roots and seeds – you have to be very careful where you get it.
Most of my career I focused a lot on detoxification and really helping clean out the environment.
Things I’ve worked on… You can go to the store and buy coffee or buy vitamins and they can have heavy metals, lead, mercury, horrible things in it.
I don’t want to scare people.
Instead, I’ve worked on creating some things that hopefully will help people feel, look, and be better because we just all need to be as great as we can be.
There’s no easy, one pill solution, right?
Coffee was definitely something for me.
People drink [it] every day, and if they’re going to drink it, I’m hoping they drink something that’s, free of mitotoxins, that has a good pH level, that is fair trade.
I had a whole list of things that were so important to me.
When Rahm Roast launched I was very happy because we ended up getting a 91% cup score. We worked really hard for that. Only 1% of the coffee in the world has a score that high.
But I think what was more important than a score, what’s that going to do for you?
What really matters to me is that the coffee did not have toxins and the coffee did not have heavy metals and it hadn’t been exposed to GMOs or pesticides.
If my name was going to be on it it better be something that’s really helping people and making their life better. That was important to me.
Joe Winger:
Two words you said a second ago, let’s connect them: coffee and detoxification.
What does that process look like for Rahm Roast?
Dr. Christina Rahm:
I went all over, even to Ethiopia because [they] have great coffee.
I would meet with different coffee plantations and different owners trying to find a really good place. We ended up being able to find a place in Guatemala that was on top of a mountain, which had never been exposed to GMOs and pesticides.
The water’s clean, the air’s clean.
It was a very isolated place. We decided we wanted to partner with a business that was small. All they cared about was making something that was just really unique and special. [Unlike most other businesses] they were not worried about mass production.
They’re worried about making sure that it tastes good, which taste was important to us.
But the biggest issue was let’s make sure that everything is fair trade, the organic, the vegan, we wanted everything. I wanted to be sustainable.
For me, sustainable is not enough.
We need to remediate things because you can to be sustainable. It’s not completely accurate, right?
I have a lot of patents based on remediation of things and making sure that you’re not just detoxing, but you’re helping the plants and you’re helping everything grow.
Because we should have this much top soil [gestures to 6 inches] and now we have this much top soil [gestures to 2 inches] and there’s not enough nutrients in it that help the plants and the roots and the seeds. They’re just not the same.
We explored all of that and came up with a process to clean the beans and detox the beans of any kind of monotoxins, mold, fungus, bacteria, viruses, anything surrounding it.
I developed that in 2015. I started by basically writing a series of patents that had to do with getting rid of nuclear waste.
The regeneration of land, air and water and the human body and also the reversal of aging.
What I’ve learned as a scientist and as a human being is to admit failure every day, and then to admit that I’m going to try to be better every day.
And that’s what happened with the coffee.
It was a one step process that involved a four day process to make the cleaning and it’s made from basically a zeolite silica trace mineral vitamin mixture which goes in and cleans the beans.
I think that’s the reason our cup score is so high because the PH level basically getting rid of all those minor toxins, all the things, the beans that are harmful or could be harmful creates a ph level that is very conducive to our body.
I don’t know if you know this, but our Earth is composed of silica and water, right?
As humans, we are too.
So when you put something in your body, you want to make it compatible bioavailable to the body. And I would say that’s another proprietary thing that I do. And I work on things I’m working on.
Understanding the DNA of a coffee bean, and understanding our DNA and then understanding how they would work copacetically together.
Another thing that was really close to me that I actually have not talked about in any interview is the fact that. With coffee and coffee enemas and different things that people have, there’s like a 70 percent increase right now in colon cancer. It’s horrible. And I would credit that to the environment and to all the things we’re being exposed to.
And even vegans are getting colon cancer. Even younger people. You can look it up.
It was in the New York Post, everything else. So I wanted a coffee that a doctor decided functional med doctors or doctors in other countries wanted to help with this area that could use it as a colon cleanse as well.
Again, I have not talked about that anywhere, but for me, it was essential because as a person that’s had so many different types of cancer, I want to put things in my body that will help my body.
What’s interesting about what I do for a living now, I used to work in pharmaceutical and biotech and we could say.
We don’t cure bronchitis, but here’s zithromax to help with bronchitis and it does right from my perspective.
Giving people things that make their body, make them achieve the greatest thing they can, that, which is to be their best self, it’s so important.
And if those things that we give them can also improve the cellular health of their body by making the healthy cells healthier and making the cancerous or the sick cells not even wanna be there, then that is a goal.
There’s been all kinds of studies, there’s all kinds of information which shows that could be possible.
But again, the problem is in theory, yes, that can help people in different areas of health.
But in reality, I don’t feel like it has because I think the coffee beans and coffee has been exposed to so many things in our environment that then sometimes we’re putting more toxins into our body.
So that was really a major focus for me when I worked on the coffee.
We drink coffee every day and we deserve to have really good coffee.
I’m not saying,me making spaghetti and saying my spaghetti is the “best spaghetti in the world.”
I will tell you that I’ve traveled to 89 countries and I’ve studied this for years and this has been a topic of mine since I was in my twenties, that has been important to me.
Then my oldest son, my Mom used to give him the coffee with the sugar and the cream and he would just keep drinking it.
And I would get in an argument with my Mom about why are you giving my Son coffee now?
He’s bouncing off the walls. He just loves it.
So he put fire under my feet on it. I was like, I’m too busy working on all these other projects.
He was like, “Mom, you have to make good coffee.”
Because some people drink four or five glasses a day. So it needs to be healthy for you.
It’s just like water. If you’re going to drink water, you want to drink healthy water; and water is part of the process when I make the coffee too. It’s a specific type of water that helps clean the beans.
It’s interesting. I tried to do it in the United States. I could not find a master coffee maker that could do what I wanted.
I found one in Cyprus [Greece].
So I was in Cyprus introduced to an award winning coffee grinder coffee maker.
He’s won awards all over, [ he] understood my process, understood how to do it.
Then after you tasted it, after it went through the process, he was like, this is amazing. This is the best coffee ever. And again, it makes sense.
Like when we’re healthy, we look better, right?
When coffee beans are healthier, they taste better. They’re better.
It’s just simple and I love it.
I think it’s magical how science works and how all of our DNA is connected. We’re connected to a leaf on a tree. We’re also connected and able to bring coffee to the world that’s going to help people.
I think it is probably one of the things I’ve enjoyed the most in the last three to four years of my life.
Joe Winger:
That’s beautiful. Obviously you have a huge scientific background. Our audience is into the flavor. Food, spirits, wine, coffee based on flavor.
I’m sure you can understand how science can intimidate so many of us.
Is there a very simplified way of explaining what makes Rahm Roast good for the body, good for the planet?
Dr. Christina Rahm:
It’s like going to an organic farm up in the mountains where everything’s perfect and tasting a bite of a watermelon and it just tastes so great.
Or of strawberries.
When you go to these places on these islands that have never been exposed to GMOs and pesticides.
And you’re like, why does this taste better?
Sometimes in the United States, you’ll buy a rose for someone and it doesn’t even smell like a rose, but then you’ll go to a tropical island where they don’t use GMOs or pesticides and it smells so beautiful.
This is the most beautiful rose. It smells so amazing.
The coffee was made and sourced from a single source in a place that was the perfect environment that we could find. We looked everywhere.
Then the process. That was made basically cleaning it until it was beautiful and perfect. It’s like you brush your teeth, you take a bath, you look better.
If you don’t shave or brush your teeth or take a bath for two years, then you may not look the same as you look today.
This coffee has been cleaned in a very holistic way, organic way using only natural.
It tastes amazing. It tastes almost like chocolate.
It’s very smooth.
Using zeolites [like they] used to line the ducts of the Aztec and Incas and Mayas and the pyramids. It’s documented throughout history and all I did was take a process and make sure it was cleaning so that it would look beautiful.
I think it’s simple.
I sourced it from the most amazing place that had not been exposed to pesticides and GMOs, that was fair trade, that everything was a sole source farmer.
We knew everything about the history. I want your audience to also know this.
It’s not just the beans and the plants.
It’s the parent plants and the genetics behind it.
When you see race horses. They breed, right? You pay a lot of money if you have a winner from the Kentucky Derby. Because it’s genetics.
There’s a genetic component and there’s always this debate about genetics and the environment.
Which one’s better?
And so to me, both are important.
So I looked at the genetics of the plants and the seeds
I made sure the environment was a really good environment to raise a healthy environment to raise these amazing coffee beans. And then we just cleaned them and made them even more beautiful so that everyone could taste how amazing they are.
Scientists made GMOs to try to make plants bigger, better, right? That failed.
So as a scientist I went back to school, I went to Harvard and studied nanobiotechnology for a very different reason than most people think.
I studied to see how we could reverse it.
Things naturally from things that we’ve put into our world that weren’t natural, that have hurt us.
Joe Winger:
Incredibly inspirational.
From a corporate point of view, can you talk a little bit about what inspired you to pursue the social responsibility of the company?
Dr. Christina Rahm:
In my career, I worked for the government. I’ve worked for a lot of the top pharmaceutical and biotech companies.
I would say I failed at that in many ways.
Our economy depends on spending a lot of money on health care.
It was a hard time for me, but I never gave up.
From my perspective. Since I had cancer, since I had Lyme’s disease, since I had a child that had cancer, I’ve devoted my life to trying to do the right thing. I have an opportunity to be alive for a reason.
It was a blessing, even though I didn’t feel like it was a blessing when I was diagnosed. I have a warrior strength of fighting anything.
We’ve just got to be better humans, right?
My goal is to make every person have the longest, best life possible.
That means mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually. And as a scientist, I feel like it’s on my shoulders and my responsibility to tell the truth and to do it in a positive way instead of being a whistleblower blowing things up.
I want to offer these things that can help people.
About 8-9 years ago, I started really stepping up and talking about social issues, working on female empowerment. I just always try to talk about how we can empower.
When you have gifts, if you have influence, if you have money, if you have power, your job is to protect those weaker than you or that need help.
And somehow we’ve lost that in our move for success.
We think we don’t we forget about that. But for me, that’s my motive to make social change is to it’s my responsibility to be a good human. I’m going to die someday. And I’m going to have to answer for everything I’ve done on this earth.
So I have to try every day to be better.
The coffee was something that was for a social change that I think we need to be aware of without scaring everyone.
And so that has led me to move past that. To run companies. I have 22 companies actually under DRC ventures and a lot of people don’t know that. So there’s 22 companies that I’m actually in charge of right now, trying to make some good social changes in the world.
Joe Winger:
For our audience who wants to learn more about your and Rahm Roast Coffee, what are the best ways?
Learn to Love Yourself: The Orchid Book Conversation with co-authors Rocio Aquino, Angel Orengo
Rocio Aquino and Angel Orengo, co-authors of “The Orchid” are, as their website shares partners in life and spirit, wanderers who found home in each other’s hearts.
Their journey together has been filled with a myriad of cultures, beliefs, and encounters with both the ordinary and extraordinary.
The Orchid: The Secret Code of Modern Goddesses
The Orchid: The Secret Code of Modern Goddesses
The story focuses on five of these women, each wrestling with unique life challenges such as closeted sexuality, career pressures, spousal abandonment, sexual abuse, eating disorders, and manipulative behavior.
As they engage with the program’s curriculum, they peel away layers of self-deception, pain, and societal conditioning, discovering that the love and solutions they seek already reside within them.
The Orchid serves as both the setting and the metaphor for their collective journey toward self-realization and empowerment.
Today’s conversation has been edited for length and clarity. For the full, un-edited conversation, visit FlavRReport’s YouTube channel here.
I go to a lot of book events, and a few weeks ago in Los Angeles, I went to The Orchid’s book signing. What I was amazed by was there was so much emotion in the audience. Big smiles, happy tears.
What are we missing in our lives that your book, The Orchid, helps us recognize?
Rocio Aquino:
How beautiful [of a] question. I think, to be honest, that we are perfect already. And we forgot.
Angel Orengo:
Yeah, I think we forget that at the core life doesn’t need to be that difficult. It’s not that complicated that we allow ourselves to be complicated by the things around us, by the things that we’re told, by the way we think our lives need to be, by the number of houses, clothing, shoes – everything right that we need to have.
The moment you bring it down to the basics and you’re like, yeah, life should be simple. We are okay. We’re just learning here. We’re back. We’re like in a school and the teacher wasn’t angry because we got it wrong. On the contrary, it was just like, Oh, don’t worry. I’ll teach you.
Joe Winger:
So what I’m interpreting is, people are having these emotional realizations because they’re remembering your message that they’re perfect already?
I was in the front, so I was not as intimate like you and your perspective. But what resonates with me and what I see that can resonate for someone else is that they know and they understand that they are not alone on this journey.
The struggles they are feeling are real. They feel the difficulty. Everyone at some point is [feeling] who here has a difficult path? Everyone is like me. That connection is not superficial, but it’s more in a deep way when you are in a group setting after being so disconnected really to talk about the important things that matters in life has another connection.
Angel Orengo:
We’ve gotten large amounts of feedback by now. Some people are touched by the fact that someone has written a book selflessly to help them. I know there were people that were touched very much by that.
I think you understand what that means really, it was all about how do we help the reader get to a different place, right?
Go from point A to point B, right? There are people that for the first time find themselves in an environment where they can treat themselves with some kindness, where maybe they haven’t stopped to think about that before. Because we try to block it.
It’s easier to numb pain than to experience it and let it go.
Other people are [having the realization that] it’s not that complicated. I’m just so happy that I found this now. I think it’s just all of that energy.
The energy in the room that day was really powerful. When you’re in the presence of that energy and by presence, the collective – it wasn’t us. It’s we – emotions come to the surface, and that’s how we clear emotions, and that’s how we clear energy.
Thank you for sharing that because I didn’t realize that was happening.
Rocio Aquino:
We didn’t have any idea and remember, we have two teenage daughters. They bring us back to reality really quickly at our house.
Joe Winger:
Going to the actual book itself between the characters, the descriptions, their backgrounds.
What’s real? What’s fiction? And for fiction, what inspired it?
Rocio Aquino:
Everything happened, everything is real, but never happened all together.
Angel Orengo: And not to those people.
Rocio Aquino: We know that some of the places exist and all the situations exist.
The fiction is today there is not a place that you can go for free to heal in this way. But we hope that someone will open it. Let’s hope we can do it..
Angel Orengo:
Yeah, the characters, the book is absolutely real.
Every single thing that happens there has either happened to us or happened to someone we know, or we’ve read it in the news.
The story about the model and the sexual abuse that’s real, right? It’s happening in the modeling industry now where they have gone through their own “Me too” movement.
There is a scene in which “Olivia” is doing a silent walk and she has a vision of her mother near her. [to Rocio] That’s something that has happened to you, about your own mom who passed away.
There’s a scene in which “Olivia” is speaking to her father. It was a difficult relationship and her father wasn’t the best version of a father that he could have been.
That a lot of it is after my own experience with my own father, who I met three times in my life. One of which, the longest, was five hours. So we took pieces and through the help of everyone who collaborated in the book to construct these characters that brought together all these experiences.
We wanted to write the story of Rocio, who morphed into “Sophia”, and then we realized that we wanted to tell more that we needed that in order to be of service to the people who would be reading the book, we needed to tell more stories because there are so many things happening to women out there that we don’t hear about that we wanted to do justice by representing as many of them.
That’s where it all comes from.
Rocio Aquino:
The same happened to us when we were reading, not writing the book. We were crying constantly. At one point I put it down, we were crying [so much]. Then we did it first in English and after in Spanish and then we were crying in Spanish so was like, “Okay I’m continue to heal.”
The process for us was really intense
Angel Orengo:
The experience that you’re having [the audience and reader’s emotion], everyone is sharing similar things. It’s simple, but as I’m going, I find myself thinking about things that I’ve never thought about in my own life.
I need to put them down. Sometimes it takes me a little bit before I pick it up again. So it’s like peaks and valleys of intensity.
Joe Winger:
As authors, how are you feeling now knowing that so many people are having such extreme feelings and discoveries from your pages?
Rocio Aquino:
You never know how your work is going to be received, to be honest.
Even though we have a very strict culture of not judging anyone, being totally neutral, we are going to make suggestions.
Now that people are seeing the book, it’s a pleasure, it is humbling.
Angel Orengo:
There was intentionality in what we were writing. The book came after our first year of deep introspection into who we were and how we wanted to change our lives. [We studied] a lot of self help books. At the time that we started writing, it was about how do we share this with people who normally don’t have access to information
Also for people who don’t have resources to go and spend time in a retreat for a weekend or spend $5,000 or even $500. [We thought] we should do television because this is our background. But let’s own the intellectual property, the story behind it.
[We thought] we should do television [series], but let’s own the story behind it.
So when we sit down with the people who are going to help us craft the TV show, we have a say in how it’s made. Right now what ends up happening is that people don’t think that love is powerful enough to deal with the issues that you have around you.
We think that we have to combat anger with anger or force. That’s what we’ve been raised to believe. We’ve gotten to a point where love really does conquer all, but not in the way in which we were taught.
So when we approached a book, it was, “Let’s do it with a lot of love,” we said, and if we can help one person, it’ll have been worth it.
Everyone who we are connecting with is having similar reactions so it’s humbling. We’re filled with gratitude beyond belief that we were chosen, selected, inspired to write what we wrote and to put it forth.
Not just write it, but really now be the face of it and take it to as many places as we can.
Rocio Aquino:
That’s the main point. When someone says “Thank you”, because now that means I can continue to share with more people. If more people feel better about themself, that is incredible. That’s our main point to invite everyone to our party.
If more people feel better about themself, that is incredible.
And the part is really, if you are feeling better about yourself? Great! So it’s about that.
Joe Winger:
During your book event introduction, you mentioned one of your goals is to bring The Orchid to real life. Where are we today with that goal? How can the audience help you?
Angel Orengo:
Everything in your life begins with an intention. Waking up in the morning, getting off your bed, right?
Everything is intention after intention. The first and most important thing that we want is for people to truly enjoy the book because through the enjoyment of the book, there is a transformation that’s taking place.
We now understand that the way to change the world, and even though this is not the ultimate intention is the indirect intention, we can make this place a better place to be for all of us.
It begins by me feeling better about myself, and you feeling better about yourself. And it begins by all of the things that we create.
All these things these women are experiencing in The Orchid.
To your question, the first thing is for people – and it’s happening already – to say, wouldn’t it be awesome if this place really did exist and these transformations were taking place. If one person says it, it’s a big deal.
If a million people begin to think that way, or a billion people begin to think that way. Wow. It is about the power of what we have to manifest.
In terms of The Orchid as a retreat center, I think there are versions of it throughout the world already. There are many places that exist. I think those places will be inspired when they read our book to go to a different level. We can do more to expand the way we’re doing this.
There are podcasts down the line. There are television shows that we’ve mentioned. There’s a digital community that we would like to work on and develop. There is a nonprofit because there are going to be issues that will require that approach.
We’re going to continue building this community that ultimately is going to want to continue conversations as to how I deal with this.
Even though we attempted to do a very complete seven day experience at this retreat center, the truth is that the experiences can vary greatly.
There’s so much more out there.
We only depicted a number of healers. The number of healers and healing modalities out there are endless. I believe it will happen.
We have had initial conversations with certain people about it, but I would say it’s in early stages.
I would much rather encourage everybody who is already well advanced into a retreat center to look at themselves and see if there’s anything that can be learned from ours and create their own orchid so that we can help more people around the world.
Rocio Aquino:
Yes. Take the lessons, what you learn and it really is, “How I can begin to have a conversation with someone.”
Joe Winger:
As authors, can you talk a bit about what your writing process was like? What was the timeline going from idea to finished, published book?
Angel Orengo:
We began our process for the book at the end of 2021. So it took us about two and a half years.
We’ve come across a lot of people who say, ”Wow, that’s fantastic.” It took them nine years or 10 years and so on.
We were doing this 24 hours a day for two and a half years.
We relinquished everything else that we were doing and we dedicated ourselves to our growth, our personal growth and introspection, which in itself was the core of what’s at the book and to crafting putting on paper as many of the thoughts and ideas that we had.
The first step was Rocio and I basically went back and forth. We started thinking about which things worked. At first she was the guinea pig. She was experiencing things, a lot of healing practices.
Rocio Aquino:
It’s a process. Experiencing different things, and at the beginning you don’t have it very clear, but you begin, “Okay, this was my story.”
The main thing was to teach the lessons in a very original way. When you are relaxed, when you are in your house watching TV or reading.
You begin to question, is this serving me or not? The process of putting our learnings on paper.
Everyone is a creator. We can create and create.
No one is going to have our perspective. Angel was very clear [about] what he likes in life and has never spoken bad about anyone.
In my mind, I was not like that. I was speaking bad about people. But then I learned the power that [kind of speaking] represents and now I don’t want to do it.
But it’s those lessons that you begin to learn [from]. I grew up with that different paradigm, and now that I know another one, I prefer the new one.
Because it gives me more freedom, creativity, and everything.
We put everything in place. We worked hard to make this happen because our motivation was to do a book for [the younger version of] me 32 years ago when I tried to kill myself and I didn’t have the tools and I didn’t have anything.
So this is a book that I wish my mom had before she passed away 32 years ago.
The motivation was really to spread that another way of thinking was available. So we were in a hurry, like this needs to be available for those Rocio’s, for those Pepitas who were out there, who are out there and need to have something that they can grab quick, and they can begin to see a change.
Angel Orengo:
I would add, the process of writing the book was truly experiential. It wasn’t just spitting it out, we were living certain things.
There were times we stopped the book to have an exercise of releasing energy.
What we realized as we were writing, there were things inside of us that needed to be addressed.
Whether it was an experience that happened when you were a child…
I can’t tell you the times where we were crying, deeply moved by what we were writing and reading and how that was cleaning us inside and how that was changing us.
We went through different hurdles.
For example, we realized at an early stage that the book could not be judgmental about anything. if we were going to connect with readers, right?
We had no idea that we needed to ensure that the people at the Orchid, Mary and her staff. [They] never looked at anybody and said, “Oh, I’m so sorry.” It’s more, “We know we’ve been there. You too can heal from that.”
And so all of those things emerged as we were writing.
There was intentionality and some clear ideas as to how we wanted to proceed. The truth is that we were experiencing and adjusting as we went.
Rocio Aquino:
With a lot of respect.
Angel Orengo:
With a lot of respect for each other, the people we were collaborating with, and the reader.
Joe Winger:
The book is called The Orchid: the Secret Code of Modern Goddesses.
The color scheme, it’s primarily female names, from a traditional or direct point of view, it’s geared more toward a female audience.
As the authors, trying to get a guy in a woman’s life to read it. What would you encourage them to say to get a guy to read it?
Rocio Aquino:
#1, I’ve been a woman and reading many books about guys, written by guys and I love it.
So maybe it’s time for a guy to be open minded. I can do this and I can read a book about women.
#2, it’s incredible to go in the deepest way of thinking of women. So try to understand how they work and what they are thinking. This is a fantastic opportunity. It has so many good sides because you want to have a better understanding of your mom, of your sister, your girlfriend, your wife, your daughters.
Then you’ll have a better way of how women relate to each other, but how do they relate to themselves, and how you can be an ally in their process.
Angel Orengo:
Recently I was writing a brief article for a fraternity that I belong to and I was very active when I was in college.
Essentially the article is to inspire them to read this book. The issues that we talk about, whether it’s sexuality, limiting beliefs, the power of forgiveness, the power of gratitude or any of the other issues that the women who are there are speaking of, they’re universal.
They’re not gender based, right?
So any opportunity that you have or that you give yourself to relate to those issues, it’s an opportunity to grow.
I think for men for far too long, we’ve defined masculinity as “the absence of emotion” or perhaps the “existence of physical strength.”
More and more we’re finding out about emotional intelligence, right?
That emotions in general and our ability to share them to be vulnerable is powerful and can only enhance the people that we are.
I would say be open minded. The issues are truly for everybody. You can learn a thing or two, not just about yourself, but about the women in your life.
It’s and it could be really powerful. Plus let’s face it, the better we communicate with one another, the better we relate to one another across genders the better our community is going to be, and we need more community in the world.
I think if anything has shown us, and this is true at any time, right?
Every person you speak to, we’re all longing for community. We need connection. We need to connect more with each other.
Rocio Acquino:
Deep connection, not superficial.
Joe Winger:
The book is called The Orchid, The Secret Code of Modern Goddesses.
Wrapping up, for people out there who want to buy the book after hearing about it, Whether it’s websites, social media, how can we follow you? How can we buy the book?
Rocio Aquino:
There are so many ways right now. We have a website: TheOrchidBook.com
You can find the book in English and Spanish.You can buy it on Amazon, and Barnes and Noble, Apple, and we have the audiobook too.
And the exercise, if you want to do a book club with your friends, you can do some exercise that are on the website.
Daytime TV Star Thaao Penghlis Seducing Celebrities wants to Give You a Taste at his next dinner party. Read all about it in his new book.
Thaao Penghlis has starred in some of the biggest TV shows of all time – including playing on daytime TV’s “Days of Our Lives”.
Thaao Penghlis new book Seducing Celebrities: One Meal at a Time
Now in Thaao’s new book, Seducing Celebrities: One Meal at a Time he reveals seduction in the dining room by creating incredibly delicious for his famous friends.
Today’s conversation has been edited for length and clarity. For the full, un-edited conversation, visit our YouTube channel here.
Joe Winger
Congratulations on your new book. It’s a tasty read and a fast read.
Thank you for joining us for a conversation today.
Thaao Penghlis:
Thank you for inviting me.
Joe Winger:
You’ve done a lot of work in your life. We’re going to go to food and books as quickly as possible.
When you’re at an airport or in public, what is the most common thing people remember you from?
Thaao Penghlis:
Certainly Days [of our Lives]. There’s a big Armenian contingency out there who always comes at me at the airports, [Days…] was in 152 markets. Especially when you’re in New York and it’s an international port. When Mission [Impossible] was on. I certainly enjoyed that. I think it had a large male audience because of the action and that I liked it was interesting. That kind of prepared me for the masks that I did on Days [of Our Lives]. So it was a real challenge. Working in daytime; I think the biggest challenge is remembering all those lines and giving it some kind of conviction and taking those lines off the page.
And a lot of the time, because there’s too many lines, we’re just on the edge, and so because I have a certain intensity I’m able to cover. I think through all those years people, airports probably are the biggest. I’m going to do a PA [public appearance] at the Grand Canyon in August.
It’s a very special train ride through the Grand Canyon with just 22 fans. It’s going to be a very intimate affair. So over the years, you get the older people who are the real followers, because the youth today have different appetites.
Just like they do with food, they’re not always conscious about what they’re eating. Unless they’re educated about it or they’re raised on good food. And I think today food has become a convenience rather than a celebration.
Joe Winger:
You use wonderful words in your book. It feels almost like poetry. “Food is the magic of our universe.” Can you elaborate on that a little bit?
Thaao Penghlis:
We’ve been given such diversity as far as food is concerned, that we have that many choices, especially in countries that can afford food. But to me, once you’ve grown up tasting octopus – we used to hang it on the [clothes] line for three weeks until it dried out. There’s no blood in the octopus, therefore, it doesn’t rot – that was mouthwatering.
Some of the fruits you have in life, like mangos. When you can appreciate the way they’re being served. It’s not like eating an apple. If you eat a mango and you slice it, then cut it up in quarters, there’s a different texture to it. The flavor. To the eye it becomes attractive. I think food, when you think about what you can control in your life and you are blessed to have it. I think food is magical because of that.
Joe Winger:
One more line of food poetry from your book. “You discover your body’s secrets by the way you feed it and how it feeds you back. “
Thaao Penghlis:
When we who are in the Greek Orthodox church, we go through a fast to the last day [of holidays like Easter] before we go to the church and get the bread and the wine.
You start to appreciate the food that you can’t have because of its limitations in the religion. The last day you’ll have olive oil on bread with some sugar, things like that. So when you get to food and understand it, when you stop eating and cleanse your body, sometimes it just juices, you become hungry.
You get to understand what food does to the body by emptying it out. If you don’t eat well, or if you eat late, then the next day, you’re not going to feel great.
So you get to understand what the body can take and what, and when, are the limitations to eating and at what hour, if you drink too much wine.
As an actor, I don’t drink very much. But if I have wine, the next day, my eyes are going to show it. So it tells me something about the kidneys, because the eyes are connected to the kidneys. So it’s understanding how the machine you’ve brought into life carries your soul. How does that express itself in the best way possible?
As actors, we have a responsibility because of that body being presented on camera as a certain responsibility to the producers to the show and to your audience. So you get to understand. I would go through a four day fast with Bela’s broth, Celsius broth. I would find that would cleanse me through the days I did like a liver cleanse, which got rid of stones.
You get to understand what the organs are, that you can do things naturally without having to take all those dreadful medicines and those pills.
The body is all we’ve got. Why have I overcome certain things in my life? It’s always been through nutrition.
Joe Winger:
Your journey, the things you’ve learned, and you touch upon that in the book a little bit, lessons you learn from different actors and producers and people you’ve worked with, but that’s another great lesson is as far as using it as a medicine.
The book is called Seducing Celebrities: One Meal at a Time. It is an enormous undertaking: beautiful pictures, recipes, Hollywood stories, your family. There’s a lot going on.
What inspired you to write the book?
Thaao Penghlis:
The hardcover has all the colored pictures inside. So it has a different dimension to it when you actually see it, because let’s face it, presentation is very important.
So when you see color, when you see something displayed you want to get into it. If something looks like someone just piled something, it’s not attractive to the appetite.
My manager called me one day and he said, “You always talk about food. Why don’t you do a cookbook?”
I went, “Oh, I don’t know how to do a cookbook. Everything that I’ve caught has come out of my head.”
I remembered, I learned when I worked at the UN [United Nations] for a year when I was in the diplomatic corps. In my youth I went into kitchens where they had chefs. I saw presentation. I understood the etiquette of arriving there on time.
45 minutes later you’re having the hors d’oeuvres, maybe it’s champagne, maybe it’s some caviar or whatever they presented.
Then it was time to go into the dining room and sit there. It became a ritual. And so you got to appreciate the time, the presentation that someone put in.
So all these memories came into my head. I said how would you think? How do you think about food? I said it’s really seducing people, isn’t it?
By the way you create an atmosphere, by the way you look at a dish, and by the aroma. So I said, Let’s call it “Seducing.”
I said who have I seduced?
How about celebrities that I’ve met and worked with? That’s how it came about seducing celebrities. One meal at a time.
I always like to serve the first, second and the third course. But usually, I don’t join the guests on the first course, because I’m busy preparing the main course.
So I present the first course to them. Then I’m in the kitchen. The actor, Danny Kaye in the old days. He used to be an expert of Chinese food and around the counter in his kitchen is where his friends sat and he just fed them. That was something that was so gratifying for him.
So I understand if it’s done well, and your friends leave. They take it for granted.
People don’t cook these days, or they’re intimidated because of the way you’ve presented it. So therefore let’s take you out instead. So you don’t get that personal touch that I think is so important.
When you sit around your watering hole, as I call it, that “table”, which is something if when I leave this country eventually and go home to Australia, that is one thing I’m going to take with me is that table because it has a huge history to it.
To me the table and how you decorate it and how you present it is very important to the appetite of the person joining you.
Joe Winger:
I’m thinking of your table, sometime in the future when you do move, that could be a heck of an auction item. The amount of people who sat around it and heard stories and shared stories.
Speaking of those stories, you’ve named huge Hollywood stars like Tom Hanks, Rita Wilson George Clooney, amazing actors, Joanna Cassidy, William Hurt.
Your Hollywood life has been so many decades of work and amazing people. What was the process like deciding who makes it into the book and deciding who you had to leave out?
Thaao Penghlis:
You don’t like everybody you’ve worked with and everybody you’ve met, food is very personal
In the old days they serve you poison. In the French 18th century, you’d be sitting there and if you were an enemy, they’d serve you a dish with poison. That’s how they got rid of enemies. But I don’t know.
Dame Edna, who I was best man at his wedding, which is Barry Humphries. He was very particular. He was also a person who loved art. So he would walk around my house looking at what kind of a collection and made his judgment on it.
The same thing with the food, he would taste it. He would give you that quite qualifying look that he approves.
Omar Sharif was different. When I worked with him, we had champagne and caviar every day, because that’s the way he lived.
[He would be] telling me stories of Lawrence of Arabia and many of his other films and I think, because I look like his son, he was very taken not in the beginning. In the beginning, he was quite rude and quite distant. It wasn’t until I was about to start the first scene with him where he comes into the room and when I met him, he was distant, shook my hand and said, “Hello”.
So when he comes into the room, he’s supposed to slug me after something I say.
He says to me, by the way, “Please, when I hit you do not go over this 18th century table and break it. It’s very important that we are respectful about this table.”
And I said, Oh, I’m not going anywhere. And he says, what do you mean?
I said, “Oh, Omar. I said, if you hit me and I go flying off that table, where do you and I go for the next four hours?”
He says “What will you do?
I said, “I’ll probably adjust my tie.”
He started to laugh and that’s how it started.
How do you infiltrate a person’s personality who comes in defensive working with Bill Hurt in “Altered States”.
I had some very difficult dialogue because it was very technical. How do you make it real? I started to do this sequence and he says to me, “Is that how you’re going to do it?
And I said, “Why is that how you’re going to do it?”
And from that moment, he goes, “You’re an arrogant son of a…,”
And I said, “So are you.”
From that moment, we clicked. When we joined hands in Mexico, away from Warner Brothers, we had a good bond.
I never stood for his star attitude. You have to call it. So I don’t like it. When someone brings that, I leave that, I go outside.
Joe Winger:
Doris Roberts, after dinner once wrote you a note. I took that idea as an incredibly loving gesture.
if you could talk a little bit about that note, and then any other amazing gifts from you dinner parties?
Thaao Penghlis:
When I approached Doris and she would write the introduction, her comment was, “Oh, darling, why don’t you do that?”
I said, Doris, you’ve been coming here for dinner for years. So why can’t you just get in touch with your heart and write something pleasant?
And that’s what she wrote.
Because every time she came, it’s like my friends who come over always know they’re going to get a good meal. I never go cheap on the thing. I’ve seen people come in the house with daisies in their hand. I said, “Does this house look like it collects daisies?”
Or they’ll bring me Two Buck Chuck.
I said, are you bringing that so I can put it as a wine for the food, because it’s certainly not going on the table and things like that.
Where people are not experiencing you or contributing and also shows you how cheap it is. And even when Doris, who used to get crates of champagne from Dom Perignon for free, because she was connected to somebody who worked there, she would come in.
She would say “Darling, here’s some Dom Perignon, put it in the fridge.”
I said, “Oh, okay. Thank you.” I think, Oh, this is a person who understands quality.
Then five minutes later, she’s sitting at a chair. She says open the champagne for me, will ya?. So I realized it wasn’t for the house. It was for her. So she didn’t bring anything.
Here’s this woman who makes an enormous amount of money. I’ve studied with her for over 20 years with Katsalis, the director, and then she would come in and sit at the table and she would look at the flowers and then she would look at the presentation of everything and then she would smell the food and so through that experience – you don’t always get respect, you have to earn it.
With her, because of my work as an actor, and because of my success as an actor, and also now writing some people will say to you, “Are you writing another book?
But they say it in such a derogatory way.
Whereas Doris said, “I’m so proud of you.“
I went out with Doris, just the two of us went to movies because she always had to have company. She was like Joan Rivers. She had to have every night filled. She couldn’t stand just being on her own. So when she was invited to my home, she always remembered the presentation and the flavors of that evening.
Joe Winger:
Let’s talk a little bit about what was the process of writing the book like this time?
Thaao Penghlis:
Recipes are in my head.
So I had to cook in my head. For six months I started to think, Oh,I never wrote anything down.
I would call friends and say, “What was your favorite meal I cooked?”
Then I would say, Oh, okay, that’s good; and then I would just test my friends and they would tell me what they like the best.
So I got all these recipes that were still in my head. And I somehow remember what I put in it. My sister in law in Australia says to me, the difference between you and I as chefs is that I have to have a cookbook in front of me. You open the fridge and say, what are we going to eat?
I spent six months going through recipes.
Then finally I said, what did my mother cook? The Greek traditional foods or the Greek desserts. And my sisters are very good at cooking desserts.
Then slowly I collected the foods and started to make them.
Joe Winger:
That’s an incredible journey.
We’ve pushed toward the idea of an impolite or a bad dinner guest. How do we find an appropriate dinner gift? And then what would be a definite no?
Thaao Penghlis:
People will ask me, what can we bring?
It’s a silly question because you can’t bring food. So you, what do you bring wine? Or flowers? Or whatever enhances the atmosphere?
But something that’s not here, but sometimes when they keep asking me that, I say, bring cash. And that always throws them because they take it seriously.
So sometimes I won’t answer that question. I said, “Surprise me. But make it expensive.”
So I like to play with them.
I said to a friend of mine once, your hands are always empty. They never spoke to me for three years after that. They turned around and left.
There’d been guests who arrived when you had a seven o’clock dinner and arrived at 9:30. I’ll open the door and say to them, “I’m sorry, we’ve already had dinner. We’ll talk another time.” And then I closed the door because I find it disrespectful.
It tells you who people are and their consciousness. I don’t like unconscious people, but we’re going through a very difficult time in the world.
And it’s all because people are not conscious of others. It’s always about them. And so to me, the wonderful thing about serving food and expecting something in return, something.
Even if it’s – we used to write notes in the old days, a phone call – but texts now have become such a convenience.
Why don’t you just call me and tell me where I spent two days preparing this, that you can’t afford a five minute phone call, but you’ll text me in one sentence and that’s it.
Things like that I don’t approve of.
I think that kind of communication short changes [the memory of the experience]. I want to be at times where you want to cook again. If you’re not gonna share something about yourselves, call me the next day and say, I had such a wonderful evening. Some people think it’s enough when they leave, or they got here,
But they don’t understand how you complete things. Completion is very important. Just as an actor, you have an arc in your character, it’s complete.
The same thing with food.
When I serve food, it’s complete. I have an order: I have hors d’oeuvres. I have a first course. I have the main course. And then I have dessert and maybe some Greek coffee or tea or whatever people need and the wines.
But I just find people are unbelievable. They don’t understand what it takes to put an evening together.
If you don’t know how to treat me, I’m going to show you. So that’s what I said there.
Joe Winger:
Have you ever played with the idea of a cooking show? Is that something you see at all for yourself?
Thaao Penghlis:
It’s a lot of work. All that preparation. I’ve done it as a guest here and there.
Joan Rivers used to join guests and everything, she always made some wonderful jokes.
Dame Edna would make wonderful jokes.
I’m doing a book signing May 22nd at the Grove in Los Angeles at a Barnes and Noble. I’ve got to do a cooking show. I thought what are we going to cook? Something that’s not difficult.
So I’m going to do a vegetarian dish, which is not in the book, but it’s with shiitake mushroom, truffle oils, mint, basil heirloom tomato, raw peas and pine nuts. Then I will mix that in with the pasta and some olive oil and then some truffle oil and with some herbs and that’s about it.
That’s so convenient and it’s such a delicious dish with Parmesan cheese over it.
Joe Winger:
The book is called Seducing Celebrities: One meal at a time
You breezed over Joan Rivers for a moment and I wanted to touch upon it because In that chapter, you help us see her in a different way than what we always think of her as, especially being in the car with her daughter, Melissa as a young girl.
When I think of Joan Rivers, the stereotype, I think of outrageous, and you have one or two moments beyond her, Barbra Streisand, there’s a little bit of outrageousness there, are there any outrageous moments that you didn’t include that you thought about including?
Thaao Penghlis:
I don’t I don’t mind telling stories, or privately telling stories.
There’s got to be a borderline, just like etiquette. If I’m expecting for people to behave a certain way.
One time, there was a famous guest, which I won’t mention, who was having problems with their daughter, and they were sitting around the table. The phone rang in the middle of dinner, and he answered it, he starts screaming on the phone, and telling his daughter off.
I just lost it, I got up and I said, “If you don’t mind, take your bloody phone call outside, we’re not interested in your private business and how rude of you.”
Because I don’t like people bringing phones into the house.
The inner chatter that goes on with people’s minds, where they’re so distracted with life instead of just being there. Being present.
With Telly Savalas as well. There have been times also with people with Days [of Our Lives] and I couldn’t tell those stories because firstly, I have to work with him again. Secondly, I don’t think it’s everybody’s business.
There was a book that Hustler put out all the stories about those magnificent stars of the [1940s] and talked about their sexual proclivities.
Someone said, “Why would you do that?” Why would you betray your friends that way?
You smash the myth. They spent years creating a myth. But when you start getting into the nitty gritty, you make those people ordinary. And show business is not about being ordinary.
So I try to refrain from telling things that go beyond the norm. I want to be able to see these people later in some time, even though they’re gone,
I still believe we’ll see them on the other side that they did more good for me. Otherwise it’s a matter of respect and keeping someone’s dignity there.
Joe Winger:
Your book starts almost like a love note or a Valentine to growing up with your family. Your mother, your father, their first trip to L. A., to your grandfather George’s herrings and olive oil tin.
Thaao Penghlis:
Yeah, that was something to watch growing up.
To see my grandfather bringing his knowledge of food from the islands of Greece.
What I remember the most, even my grandmother, you’ve come down in the mornings and you can smell the cinnamon toast. She would be dipping wicks into wax and creating candles for the church.
Joe Winger:
Seducing celebrities one meal at a time.
Can you give us a tease about what you’re looking forward to in the future?
Thaao Penghlis:
I just finished exploring the Holy Families.
I did a two week trek up and down the Nile to these sacred places. So I’ve written a story because most of the things we see about religion are postcards or lovely paintings. What do we do when we explore it within ourselves and follow those routes? Something else happened.
I’ve written a teleplay. It’s very interesting the way it begins and where it begins and how it follows through into The Great Escape.
