Perfect Wines for Summer, Wine Pro’s Mike DeSimone and Jeff Jenssen’s new book White Wine Book, available on Amazon now.
Summertime is hot weather, light meals and playing outside. All of which pair incredibly well with white wines.
That’s why Mike DeSimone and Jeff Jenssen decided to write a book featuring 1000s of white wine grapes that wine lovers should try. Some are very common, some are very obscure. But they’re all worth a taste – seriously.
Mike DeSimone, Jeff Jenssen’s new book White Wine Book
Today Mike DeSimone and Jeff Jenssen sat down (over zoom) for a conversation about wine, travel, food and more!
Note: the below interview has been edited for length and clarity. The full interview is available on YouTube, with clips in this article.
We’re talking about your new book “White Wine” today, available now on Amazon and we have a lot of questions. But first, welcome to the conversation and thank you both for being here.
Thank you. Thank you. We’re thrilled to be here.
For anyone who’s new to wine, these two are absolute wine GOATs. They’re the experts. They’ve written some great books in the past, and their new book is absolutely amazing. Over the past week I’ve had the chance to show it to a lot of people in my life and what I’ve loved about it is everybody from the wine geek all the way down to people who are barely wine drinkers, have all found really interesting reasons to love the book.
In the book you mention the word “invitation” several times. You include casual tasting instructions, the food pairing index, the white wine checklist. You do such a good job of making the wine approachable.
How important was it when you were building this book, the idea of making it approachable?
Wine always is very mysterious to people. And it doesn’t have to be. We really believe it. It’s kind of like our mantra. Open up a bottle of wine, sit around a table together, and there’s some conviviality and communal, you know, and, and communality in that bottle. So when you sit down in a circle and you’re having a glass of wine together, all of a sudden, we’re not so different.
So one of the things that we really wanted to speak to is to make wine approachable. One of things I really appreciate what you just said, is that people from all levels, from wine geeks to wine novices, we specifically set out to write this book with enough information that the geek will be really happy and enough information to intrigue the novice to wanna learn more.
We’ve always said this is the kind of book that you would buy for your Dad who happens to like wine, or you would buy it for yourself or buy it for a girlfriend or a buddy that wants to learn more about wine.
But I will tell you that we’ve been honored; our last book, Red Wine (amazon.com), was actually suggested reading list for people who were studying to become Masters of Wine. So we wrote this book with that idea in mind because we’d like this book to be a reference for Master of Wine students.
I think a lot of people may not realize just how much wine you might taste in an average year.
When we are tasting wine, whether it’s for a book like this and we’re trying to decide what gets include, or when we’re writing our articles, it’s very easy for us to open up 30 bottles in a day.
But there’s also traveling, going to wine regions, and walking into a winery and visiting four wineries a day where people can pour you anywhere between 3 or 4, up to 20 glasses.
One of the things that we have to make a distinction is how much wine do we taste and how much wine do we drink.
Because when we taste wine, we may open 30 bottles, but you just have a sip, you swirl it around your mouth, you get your impression, and then you spit it out. So you can actually taste 30 or 40 wines in one sitting. The alcohol that you actually absorb in your mouth is probably equal to one glass of wine.
We really have to maintain our wits about us when we’re writing books and tasting notes. And then out of those 30 wines, we’ll choose one or two to put in the fridge and drink with dinner.
So the difference between drinking the wine and tasting the wine is a big difference. Our neighbors absolutely love us because we have these bottles with [2 inches] out of it and put the cork back in and give it to them. So they’re very, very happy. But I think one of the things that we had to do for this book is taste.
There’s about 2,000 recommended wines. I’m gonna say we we tasted close to 5,000 [wines]. Not everything made the cut.
That’s incredible. So speaking of those 5,000, how do we prevent palette fatigue?
One thing for both of us is we both drink sparkling water.
Also, we eat very simple things just to clear the palette, wipe some of the tannins from it. We’ll eat sliced baguette or plain water crackers. That kind of thing. Also, try to break it up. Don’t drink the same style of wine over and over, because you’ll stop noticing the subtleties between them.
It’s training too. I can’t run a marathon tomorrow because I haven’t trained for a marathon, but I can taste 30 wines or 40 wines tomorrow because I’ve trained my palette to discern the differences. So it’s kind of like an athlete, it has to do with training to prevent fatigue.
So staying on the idea of tasting for a second, how do we talk to a winemaker? Any tips for a less-experienced wine drinker?
One of the first, and an easy question to ask, is how much did you make of this wine? Because that actually gives you an indication of how special the wine is, right? If somebody says, ‘Oh, we make a million bottles of this every year.’ Maybe it’s not so special.
If they say, ‘Oh, we only made 2,000 bottles of this and it comes from one special vineyard, that sometimes opens up the question of how special it is.
Another question is, if it’s a blend, if it doesn’t say on the bottle that it’s Chardonnay or Pinot Grigio, and you just know that it’s a white wine, you can ask what grapes are in this.
But people who visit wineries should ask questions. Take that as an opportunity to learn. Read the book White Wine, get some knowledge, and then you go to a winery, go out to California, go to New York State, go wherever you go, and visit a winery and talk to the winemaker and talk to the people who are responsible for making the wine. They’re very generous with their time. They want you to be informed and they want you to enjoy their wine. So do your homework and then learn some more in person, and then go back and read our book again, because you’ll learn a little bit more.
Your White Wine book is a mammoth undertaking. There’s a lot of information in there. How did you create all of this?
I think actually we were lucky in that we’d already written Red Wine. We worked with our publisher. We actually walked in, knowing that some of our prior books were a little bit text heavy, and said, ‘Hey, we want to do some graphics. For the flavor profile, there might be a picture of a peach and a rose and a lemon. For the food pairing, you’ll see a little plate of pasta and a pig and a steak.’
We worked with the same editor again. We had the structure already so that was a blessing.
When our editor came to us and said we want to publish this book, we were so excited. But then we looked at each other and said, we don’t have a lot of time to write this book. Let’s let, how, how are we gonna do this? You know? So we divided and conquered.
If you love wine, you’re gonna love this book, whether you’re a novice or above.
My old boss used to tease me because back then I enjoyed white more than red. Why doesn’t white get the respect that red does?
You know, you’re very right. We had to fight for this book.
I’m an equal opportunity white wine and red wine drinker and rose, because there are wines for different occasions. Sometimes when you’re having a big heavy steak, you want a red wine, but a lot of times we’re trying to eat lighter, more vegetables, lighter cuisine. It’s summertime now. Lighter white wines really go with those foods.
There’s so many grapes in this book. Is there one lesser-known grape that you want the world to know about because it’s an amazing discovery?
We have a holiday coming up this weekend. By the time this is posted, it will just have passed. This coming Sunday is International Pošip Day, and Pošip is a wine from coastal Croatia. It grows in Dalmatia and on some of the islands. It’s this wonderful, delightful, fresh, crisp, citrusy white grape from Croatia that we don’t see a lot of in the US. It’s in more major urban markets. It’d really worthy of attention.
Were there any unexpected surprises as you created this book?
When we did Red Wine, we did single varieties and regional blend styles, like Rioja which can have three or four different grapes in a bottle and Bordeaux can be up to six different grapes. That actually includes sparkling wine we covered in Red wine.
We covered only nine regional blend styles and 41 single varieties in White Wine. I just did account. I believe we have 14 regional right grape styles. So things like White Bordeaux, White Rioja fall under a style that’s not necessarily one grape.
Is there a message that you haven’t been asked that you would love to share with a wine loving audience?
You can always learn something. Keep learning, keep asking questions.
Sometimes there are some really interesting questions that people come up with.
We are wine experts, we’re authors of six wine books now. We write for different publications. We’re mast head at two different magazines, so we really kind of know what we’re talking about, but we don’t know everything.
So, being able to understand that and admit that, wine is a continuous, ongoing journey and learning about wine is what makes it very exciting. So I’m really happy to have been on the journey so far and I hope have a lot more years on this journey to learn more about wines I’ve never tried.
So thank you so much for your time. Tell us where to find you, where to follow you, your social media websites.
We are on Facebook and on Instagram as World Wine Guys. We have a website, www.WorldWineGuys.com for a lot of our articles and videos we’ve done over the last 13 -14 years.
Go to www amazon.com and put in three words, white wine book, it’ll pop up.
And then as you scroll down under, ‘Usually bought together.’ It’s our white wine book and our Red Wine book.
We have some friends that have written some great books, Wine Folly, Jancis Robinson.
We’re not the beginning and the end of wine knowledge. There are so many of our colleagues that we respect deeply. So there’s a lot to learn from everybody.
All I can say is that’s what we’d like for people to learn more, enjoy wine, open a bottle of wine with your family and friends and you know, we kind of drop all of our guards, we drop all of our pretenses and the world will be a lot better place.
YOU MIGHT ALSO LIKE
NYC’s Newest Margarita: Hailee Steinfeld Launches Angel Margarita: A Premium Ready-to-Drink Margarita Cocktail with Premium Beers Group
Hailee Steinfeld Launches Angel Margarita: A Premium Ready-to-Drink Margarita Cocktail with Premium Beers Group
Academy Award-nominated actress, multi-platinum recording artist, and producer Hailee Steinfeld, in partnership with Premium Beers Group, a leader within the alcohol industry in Mexico, proudly announces the launch of Angel Margarita.
Hailee Steinfeld falls in love with flavor
Hailee Steinfeld has openly expressed her love for margaritas, often sharing glimpses of her favorite citrusy cocktail on social media. Whether enjoying a classic lime margarita or experimenting with fun flavors like spicy or strawberry, she appreciates the drink’s refreshing and vibrant appeal. Her enthusiasm for margaritas perfectly complements her fun-loving personality, making it a go-to choice for celebrations and casual outings alike.
This premium ready-to-drink margarita cocktail is made with 100% Agave Tequila from the rich soil of Jalisco, Mexico.
Angel Margarita: A Premium Ready-to-Drink Margarita Cocktail
To ensure that each can offers an authentic and refreshing taste experience, Angel Margarita is then fully crafted just moments from the Agave fields.
Blending Hailee’s West Coast style with the deep Mexican roots of her co-founders Jordi Zindel and Rodrigo Hernandez, Angel Margarita will lead the category with its commitment to quality. Angel Margarita will launch with four vibrant and refreshing flavors: Lime, Grapefruit Paloma, Ranch Water, and Wild Berry.
“Margaritas have always been my go-to cocktail,
so making a ready-to-drink version with high-quality ingredients that didn’t compromise on taste was important to me,”
Hailee Steinfeld
co-founder
“After visiting the Blue Agave fields in Jalisco with my partners Jordi and Rodrigo, I was inspired by the region. I am so proud of what we have created together and cannot wait for the world to try Angel Margarita.”
In 2023, premixed cocktails were the fastest-growing spirits category in the US, valued at approximately $2.8 billion, marking a 26.8% increase year over year. Tequila was the second fastest-growing category, valued at $6.5 billion, up 7.9% yearly.
To underscore the excitement and potential of this fast-growing category, Angel Margarita has partnered with Philip Button, Founder and CEO of Seven XV Ventures and Geloso Beverage Group, one of the leading alcohol beverage manufacturers and distributors in North America. With their support, Angel Margarita will begin its launch in Southern California.
“Hailee is the perfect partner to help us share an authentic piece of our culture and redefine the ready-to-drink market through Angel Margarita with a more global audience,” said Jordi Zindel and Rodrigo Hernandez, co-founders at Angel Margarita. “We invite consumers to taste our 100% Agave Tequila premium cocktails and to experience an authentic piece of Mexico in every sip.
Stay up to date on Angel Margarita: www.angelmargarita.com / @angelmargarita
100% Tequila, 100% Angel Margarita.
Angel Margarita stands out with its high standards of craftsmanship and tradition:
- Protected Denomination of Origin sourced and manufactured in Jalisco, Mexico
- Expertly crafted high-quality ingredient list featuring 100% Agave Tequila Blanco, a blend of sparkling water, agave syrup, and natural flavors
- Each 12 oz can is 6% ABV and is gluten-free
- Available in four flavors to start: Lime, Grapefruit Paloma, Ranch Water, and Wild Berry
- Retail = $14.99 / 4-pack, $28.99 / 8-pack variety
About Hailee Steinfeld:
Academy Award-nominated actress, multi-platinum recording musician, and producer Hailee Steinfeld remains a force to be reckoned with in the entertainment industry. Her leading performance in the 2016 critically acclaimed film THE EDGE OF SEVENTEEN garnered her two Critics’ Choice Award nominations and a Golden Globe nomination. Her big-screen debut was in 2010 with the Coen Brothers’ film TRUE GRIT, for which she earned an Oscar nomination at only 14 years old. Up next, she will star alongside Michael B. Jordan in Warner Brothers and Ryan Coogler’s latest film, SINNERS. The supernatural action horror-thriller is set to release globally on April 18, 2025.
About Premium Beers Group:
With over 3 decades of experience, Premium Beers Group has innovated and revolutionized the alcohol category in Mexico. PBG was the first company in Mexico to import 100% malt beers from Europe and introduce craft beer and non-alcoholic beer. Premium Beers Group is the benchmark for excellence and a leader within the premium alcohol category.
About Geloso Group:
A leader in the innovation and development of alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages, Geloso Group manufactures and distributes premium malt beverages, wines, ciders, beers, and spirits. Geloso Group is a valued supplier and trusted partner recognized for its professionalism and commitment to quality, service, and marketing.
Thanksgiving in NYC: the perfect stuffing bread DOES exist – and it’s… [Recipe here]
This Thanksgiving in NYC, the perfect stuffing bread DOES exist – and it’s brioche. As in St Pierre Brioche Thanksgiving Stuffing
No Thanksgiving spread is complete without a hearty stuffing. While add-ins are a matter of preference, choosing the right bread is crucial. One underrated choice is eggy, rich brioche – and with St Pierre Bakery, you don’t need to go to France to get it.
Thanks to its butter and egg content, St Pierre’s Brioche Loaf provides the perfect balance of crisp toastiness while remaining soft and creamy inside, while its lightly sweet flavor adds a decadent quality that can still lean savory. Attached below is an approachable recipe for stuffing allowing for all the craveable crunch for the whole family with minimal effort required.
St Pierre Brioche Thanksgiving Stuffing
By @BrandiMilloy
Ingredients
1 loaf St. Pierre Brioche Bread
1/2 cup unsalted butter
1 medium onion, diced
3/4 cup celery, diced
3/4 cup carrots, diced
1 cup mushrooms, diced
2 large eggs
1 tbsp. fresh rosemary, chopped
3 sprigs fresh thyme, just the leaves
1 tbsp. fresh sage, chopped
1 small apple (granny smith works well), peeled and diced
Salt and pepper
Directions
-
Preheat oven to 350 F. Cut brioche bread into 1” cubes and bake for about 10-15 minutes until toasted.
-
Meanwhile, into a pot over medium high heat add butter until melted. Add onion, celery and carrots and cook until everything starts to soften, about 7 minutes. Add mushrooms and cook for 2 minutes longer. Remove from heat and set aside.
-
Into a bowl whisk together the eggs, herbs, apples, mushrooms, and salt and pepper. Add your cooked vegetables and mix to combine.
-
Pour mixture on top of toasted bread and stir to combine. Bake stuffing for about 45 minutes. If your stuffing starts to get too brown, cover until finished baking. Enjoy!
As America’s favorite brioche brand, St Pierre’s products are widely available via grocery stores nationwide as well as Walmart.
The Rise of Mushroom Coffee: A New Era in Health-Conscious Brewing
In today’s health-focused culture, where wellness transcends mere goals to become a lifestyle, mushroom coffee is emerging as a leading trend. This innovative beverage combines the classic energizing effects of coffee with components often linked to the reputed benefits of medicinal mushrooms. Such a blend makes mushroom coffee a more mindful, health-oriented option for daily consumption, resonating especially with those who weave wellness into their daily routines.
Image courtesy of Freepik
The uniqueness of mushroom coffee lies in its ability to enhance the usual coffee experience by potentially offering additional benefits. For those who find regular coffee too acidic, mushroom coffee presents a more stomach-friendly option. Additionally, it incorporates adaptogenic mushrooms, which are believed to help the body better manage stress. This attribute makes mushroom coffee especially enticing to wellness enthusiasts and those seeking a natural way to support their body’s stress response.
The Rise of Mushroom Coffee, Image Courtesy of Freepik
Finding a coffee that delivers on both taste and health promises can be a daunting task. Leading the initiative is More.Longevity & Wellbeing with its Coffee Superfood Blends. These products are meticulously developed, selecting each ingredient for its quality and scientific backing, ensuring they contribute effectively to the blend. Flavors such as Salted Caramel Vanilla and Mocha are designed to mask the natural earthiness of mushroom, making the beverage more enjoyable while enhancing its appeal. The addition of adaptogens and essential vitamins in the blends aims to support overall health by boosting immunity, enhancing energy, and improving mental clarity.
The Rise of Mushroom Coffee, Image Courtesy of More.Longevity & Wellbeing
The company’s commitment to radical transparency ensures that consumers receive a product free from unnecessary fillers and additives, affirming a respect for consumer health and environmental sustainability. This level of honesty and ecological consideration is becoming increasingly important to consumers who prefer products that are both healthy and environmentally conscious.
As the trend continues to carve a niche within the beverage market, consumers are presented with expanding choices. It’s no longer just about picking a brand; it involves selecting a philosophy and a level of quality that resonates with personal health values and taste preferences. The coffee not only invites coffee lovers to rethink their daily mug but also serves as a gateway to a more mindful and intentional morning routine.
Image Courtesy of Freepik
-
Thanksgiving in NYC: the perfect stuffing bread DOES exist – and it’s… [Recipe here]
This Thanksgiving in NYC, the perfect stuffing bread DOES exist – and it’s brioche. As in St Pierre Brioche Thanksgiving Stuffing
No Thanksgiving spread is complete without a hearty stuffing. While add-ins are a matter of preference, choosing the right bread is crucial. One underrated choice is eggy, rich brioche – and with St Pierre Bakery, you don’t need to go to France to get it.
Thanks to its butter and egg content, St Pierre’s Brioche Loaf provides the perfect balance of crisp toastiness while remaining soft and creamy inside, while its lightly sweet flavor adds a decadent quality that can still lean savory. Attached below is an approachable recipe for stuffing allowing for all the craveable crunch for the whole family with minimal effort required.
St Pierre Brioche Thanksgiving Stuffing
By @BrandiMilloy
Ingredients
1 loaf St. Pierre Brioche Bread
1/2 cup unsalted butter1 medium onion, diced
3/4 cup celery, diced
3/4 cup carrots, diced
1 cup mushrooms, diced
2 large eggs
1 tbsp. fresh rosemary, chopped
3 sprigs fresh thyme, just the leaves
1 tbsp. fresh sage, chopped
1 small apple (granny smith works well), peeled and diced
Salt and pepper
Directions
-
Preheat oven to 350 F. Cut brioche bread into 1” cubes and bake for about 10-15 minutes until toasted.
-
Meanwhile, into a pot over medium high heat add butter until melted. Add onion, celery and carrots and cook until everything starts to soften, about 7 minutes. Add mushrooms and cook for 2 minutes longer. Remove from heat and set aside.
-
Into a bowl whisk together the eggs, herbs, apples, mushrooms, and salt and pepper. Add your cooked vegetables and mix to combine.
-
Pour mixture on top of toasted bread and stir to combine. Bake stuffing for about 45 minutes. If your stuffing starts to get too brown, cover until finished baking. Enjoy!
As America’s favorite brioche brand, St Pierre’s products are widely available via grocery stores nationwide as well as Walmart.
-
-
The Future of Food is Getting “Better Better” thanks to WhatIf Foods and Chris Langwallner
The Future of food is getting “Better Better” thanks to WhatIf Foods and Chris Langwallner.
WhatIF Foods believes in a better better.
Tasty, delicious foods that are better for our bodies, better for our taste buds and farmer buds alike. Better for degraded lands, our eco-systems and naturally… better for cows.
Today I had the chance to have a conversation (via zoom) with WhatIF Food’s Chris Langwallner to talk about inspiration, their foods, their flavors and the science and technology making it all happen.
This conversation has been edited for length and clarity. For the full conversation visit our YouTube channel.
Today we are here with Chris Langwallner from What If Foods. Thanks for joining us today.
Absolute pleasure. I cannot thank you enough. It’s fantastic to be here and letting our story get out a little bit. So thank you very much. I’m excited because it’s gonna be a lot of fun.
We’re talking about plant-based foods, we’re talking about planet based foods and for a “better-better” world. I’m hoping you’ll clarify that for us.
I look forward to it. Yes, it’s all about a planet based food company. It’s all about regenerating. It’s all about reconnecting to communities, restoring the greater land, and making sure that we are replenishing the nutrients we need on a day-to-day basis.
What inspired you to get into plant-based food?
To be honest with you, as a planet based company I think what really inspired me to get into a better way of doing things is actually a call out of my grandfather.
He has been always saying, leave this planet a better world than how you found it. When I was a young boy, I couldn’t understand. It was too abstract. I couldn’t really get my head around. But as I was then working in the industry for 20, 25 years you look behind the scenes, and you see how food is being manufactured on large scale and how profitability over shadows a lot of decision making.
And on the other flip side of the coin, there is a community out there, about 2.6 billion people. This planet makes a direct income or an indirect income from farming activities. And the vast majority, more than two thirds of these people are the poorest of the poor. And we are leaving them behind. And that’s not fair to them because what we have on the plates has been harvested by them.
They take care of their land. And if we leave them behind in the current state of affairs We’ll see many tears in their eyes. And it doesn’t have to be that way. It can be totally different. And hence my strife was really to look at the planetary health and its affairs as well as humanity overall.
And thinking about that must be a better way of doing things and how can we improve it, not incrementally, but really make a system change. And here we are basically inspired by my grandfather.
On your website, you take some very science-based heavy content and you make it fun and easy. Talk about that process.
It’s a team effort. Honestly, there’s a huge team behind the scenes that works tirelessly on improving our communication and our style and our tone. But the essence of it all is that we understand that Gen Zs and today’s youth are essentially those consumer groups that are on this planet.
Probably the first sort of generation that is fully educated in sustainability. And they have their ability today by one click of a button to really look behind the scenes and understand whether or not there is BS or whether or not there’s transparency, there’s honesty, and there is a different approach to things.
So that is one aspect of things. So we wanted to really make sure we are speaking to the youth on this planet. The second aspect of it all is that, You open your social media feeds today, or you open a media channel, you switch on your television and you are bombarded with bad news, after bad news.
And quite frankly, I have worked in universities and with students and I have been shocked by the fact that people, young guys, talk to me, ‘Hey, I don’t care about sustainability. I don’t care about our planet because it’s so crappy. Everything is so bad. I might as well just enjoy the time span I have on this planet.’
And I was shocked in contrast to what my grandfather told me. Today’s youth, some of them, not all, a fraction of them think like that. Or in other words I met this young girl and she says, I don’t know if I want to have children. Because I don’t know whether or not I would like to give birth to people that then inherit a planet that is so hot.
And all of that together was just making me restless and I wanted to really change things and and take this finite time span that I have on this planet to try as hard as I possibly can to leave it better than I found it. And that’s what I strive for. Hence we’re speaking with a fun and engaging voice.
We are speaking with colors and we are speaking with cartoons so that we basically get this heavy message across in an uplifting way and saying, Hey, you can be part of something. That actually does the opposite. It’s not grim. Yes. If we change, we can make this. We’re a better place and here we are.
Thanks for the call out. The credit goes to my team.
As we segue into the products themselves, what I wanna highlight is this BamNut Is that the nickname for the Bambara Groundnut?
Yeah, so we came up with Bamnut as a short version, as an acronym for the Bambara Ground Nut, which in reality is a legume, a legume that helps us fix nitrogen organically in soils that are essentially degraded and left behind by intensive agriculture.
The Bamnut word came about in Singapore. We actually did not quite know when we started using it. We didn’t quite know how the Americans would pronounce it. And then we found out, alright, it’s the Bamnut. So it all turned out to be so witty and entertaining and just perfect fit for a “better, better” to be honest.
Because that’s a main ingredient in all of your food. Let’s talk about what is a BamNut. Why is it magical and unique?
I was walking through the world of agro food over the past 20 years, and I’ve always been hugely concerned about the massive speed of land degradation, particularly on arid land.
And that’s getting accelerated because of climate change; and the weather is changing; and the rains and the monsoons are not hitting regularly anymore. So it becomes increasingly more difficult to plant, the planting season to make sure that you are having the seeds in the ground before the rains hit them and so on and so forth.
So it becomes really challenging for folks. So land turpitation has always been a huge concern of mine because another, on the flip side of that, we are losing about 25 soccer fields worth of arid land every minute, while at the very same minute, the same amount of primary forests have been cut down.
So if you compare and contrast these two figures, what it tells me is that in order to make way for the old food industry, we actually cut primary forest and we leave land behind. And that is the wrong thing to do. That is one aspect of things.
The other aspect of things is I had once the fantastic opportunity to have an interview with Dr. Roy Steiner of the Rockefeller Foundation. And he gave a casual shoutout and he said, nowhere in the world do we produce and consume enough legumes. And I was thinking, why does he say that? But then it’s quite obvious if you think it through, because we are depending so much on crops that the land that basically holds the crops is deprived from organic nitrogen fixing crops like the legumes, and in the absence of nitrogen being fixed through the legumes, we throw endless amounts of synthetic fertilizers on the ground in order to make up for it.
That’s an aspect of things that also worried me. But today the input costs have gone through the roof is it unravels all over the world and it has gotten more and more expensive to do so the degrading of land in one pocket, I was basically going through my work with that sort of lens.
Then there’s this whole water issue. We are big time irrigating crops, but what does that do? It just slows down the loss of water tables because the moment we take water out of the ground, the water tables are collapsing. I have numbers for that. I had a business in India a long time ago, and it used to be 30 meters, and today it’s probably 90 to 120 meters.
So water is basically a huge issue. There was another lens through which I looked at, and then I was at a conference in Jakarta, and I happened to run into a scientist. He said to me that he works on the Bambara groundnut. It’s a complete crop. I thought, “Oh, that’s interesting. So what does that mean?”
And I started to really explore that much more deeper. And a complete crop turns out to be essentially a crop that has all micronutrients in the sort of right balance that we need. On top of it, it has all nine essential amino acids that we need. It has rich fatty acids, quality fatty acids, as well as car complex carbohydrates. So fiber.
You remember the forgotten macronutrient fibers for our microbiomes? So I got really inspired. So I looked up the amino acid profile and I saw it is rich in plutonic acid or spartic acid. So these are very cool amino acids in terms of generating nice flavors. And off I was; I organized the first couple of five kilos and the trial started, and that’s years and years ago.
In the meantime, the Bambara groundnut actually taught us a few lessons because it’s a very hearty nut and it really takes an effort to make cool products outta it.
It’s called a complete product, is that correct?
A complete food. A complete crop or complete food crop.
Right now all of the products on your website are based from BamNut. I see Bam Nut milk. I see noodles with seasonings, and then there’s bundles and swag and all kinds of delicious things.
In the future, are we expanding that beyond or what’s the scope?
We would love to explore new categories as we build our business. There are so many occasions throughout the day where we can actually incorporate the bambara ground in exciting products, and we look forward to doing that.
Our focus right now is definitely our milk portfolio. It’s a wonderful product. I encourage everybody to have a little taste and Judge for yourself. We have a client in Los Angeles, a coffee roaster, who said ‘This is the closest thing to cow milk that I’ve ever seen in plant-based milk.’
We call it planet based milk. I have to say again, shout out to my team in the R&D side of things because they have established a wonderful product essentially with just three ingredients: that’s water, the bambara groundnut, not coconut oil. The rest is essentially technology behind the scenes that actually makes it foam nicely, very stable foam, small bubbles. So you can do latte art.
Our Airy [flavor] is essentially the one that I would use for a nice drink, like a shake.
In between there is the Every Day [flavor] that goes essentially into my cereal in the morning.
What are the flavors?
Today we are in the market with three different products.
The first one in a slightly black sort of packaging is the Barista. It has the richest mouthfeel. It is the creamiest. We have designed it to perform fantastic or be able to perform fantastic latte art. So it really goes into the cappuccino sort of an experience rather nicely.
I personally take it also for Boba tea. I might as well use the bambara groundnut and foam it up.
I have my little trick with the barista. I actually froth it in the frother and I put my espresso shot into the frother with the barista together. So I froth it together. But that is just me. I just like it that way.
Then we have the purple package, which is our Everyday. My wife uses it in baking. We do make cakes, like traditional Austria style, and we totally use only the Everyday [flavor] for that.
Friends of mine [pour] it into their cereals in the morning. It’s a little bit richer, earthy, nutty in character because we do tend to roast the nuts a little bit stronger in the process of making it.
Last but not least, we have our Airy [flavor], which is the lightest one of it all. It is the mint colored package. It is the one that people take into milkshakes and protein shakes.
Let’s move on to Noodles
We wanted to create technologies that help us regenerate what’s broken. And today a large portion of all ramen that is being consumed on a day-to-day basis globally is deep fried in palm oil. Palm oil leaves huge banks of land degraded behind, particularly after the third cycle of palm plantations being grown.
We see the aftermath of the palm plantation industry essentially now in Southeast Asia. Therefore we were alerted when we started this project to basically say no to frying and no to deep frying and no, to essentially dehydrating instant noodles or ramen using that sort of process.
So we invented a technology that actually took that sort of challenge away. We invented an industrial scale air frying technology. Once you actually don’t fry anymore, you save about 20% of the space because 20% of palm oil is [based] in the noodle product of classic ramen. That’s what it absorbs in the frying process.
So if you don’t deep fry, you save 20%. Now nutrients will survive. Now colors may survive. Then we replaced all the palm oil with the Bambara.
We started to actually say, how can we bring color and different flavors and textures on the plates of consumers? And we created these four different products with the four different colors, which is essentially the black one, which is charcoal driven, moringa is green, pumpkin is orange and the original is yellow.
So four different options, all the same philosophy.
The backbone of making it is the same, but then we add different nutrients to it to have fun, and then we add fancy seasonings to it, which makes just a nice flavor experience as well.
Our audience is passionate, hungry, curious, foodies. What does it actually taste like?
I’m extremely proud of our Noodles because even without the seasonings, you can cook them up and eat them and you will have a wonderful experience.
Try and contrast that with other ramen that you find in the market, and you will come back to our offering immediately because they’re just tasting nice.
So our starting point of then adding the seasonings to it, like hot and spicy, or the mushrooms is an easy undertaking. It is actually an easy sort of concept to work with because if you have a neutral and nice taste to start with from the noodle base, you can build interesting flavor profiles on top.
Rather than having to use heavy flavors to mask off-flavor from a product base, or not so nice processes or even crappy raw materials. We don’t have that challenge.
We also decided very early on to keep the salt at a minimum to stay away from any flavor enhancers. No MSG, we’ve tried to keep it as clean as we possibly can.
We’ve tried to use as much spice as we can access. No flavoring and stuff like that. I’ve been in that industry for over 20 years. We thought let’s stay honest, to the product as well, to the noodles as well. And that has been a fantastic journey.
Our “Original, is a hot and sweet, hot and spicy pairing. In Southeast Asia, it’s based on wok cooking. That’s my personal favorite. I eat it on salads with a little bit of a balsamico dressing
We have with Sesame Garlic, many kids who go for a green one.
Pumpkin with the traditional Indian curry offer a great pairing. Watch out, it comes hot and spicy. Typical Indian flavors.
Last but not least is our charcoal with mushrooms. It’s fantastic for, if you go out to have a beer and come home and wanna have a bite, go for it. It’s a good one.
How did you decide which flavors to choose? Was it a lot of trial and error?
There’s a lot of trial and error. There’s a lot of pairing up with our noodles.
What we have tried to do is really look into what are the best pairings for these sort of flavors.
From that point of view, we also wanted to stay with our seasonings. We wanted to stay essentially planet based. None of our ingredients have any animal derived products in it.
You look at the charcoal, you cook it up, you eat it, you give it to a chef, let him experiment around.
We had a Spanish chef take our charcoal and put it into a paella. All of a sudden there was a totally different sort of recipe.
The way we actually derived the final products has also a lot to do with people that actually use it day-to-day in the kitchen and learn from them.
What’s the future of WhatIf foods?
We are going to enter new categories of food and we are gonna expand our existing categories with new products.
But I probably would love to use the opportunity to take you along on a more philosophical sort of journey for WhatIf foods and what comes hopefully in the next couple of years to come, because I think we have a better opportunity that needs doubling down now.
What I’m talking about is really the cost of the way we are making everything right from originating bambara groundnut, with partnering farming communities in all parts of Ghana. Encouraging them, making the ingredients ourselves, and then making the food applications, making the food, and then basically taking it to retail all the way through to Manhattan and other parts of the US.
So it’s that entire regenerative value chain that we have created and what that actually represents to us is an opportunity to really explore the intersection between soil health and restoring the soil that has been once degraded from intensive agriculture.
It is that intersection of renewable energy because the Bambara groundnut now grows in a shell and hence the shell has energy in there and can be used in order to fire up essentially for power.
If you do that smartly, you generate biochar. With biochar, you then actually sequester carbon from the atmosphere into the soils permanently for hundreds, if not a thousand years to come.
And last but not least, another intersection is wellbeing for consumers. We call them “Better Believers” as well as farming communities because we work with them directly.
We are proud of the fact that we have increased profit, not income; profit of farmers who work with us by 300%.
At 2.5 acres, these farmers are permanently uplifted above the poverty line. That’s the intersection we really wanna double down to. Again, soil health, renewable energy, carbon sequestration.
Well-being for both the better believers as consumers, as well as the farming communities. Its possible and we’re looking forward to doing that on a large scale. If we wanna fulfill the demand that we hopefully can create, then we will probably need about 20,000 farmers to do that in the next five to ten years to come.
And then generate all the energy that we need internally to be there for carbon zero. Even further carbon or maybe even participate in the carbon market through certificates. That’s our next challenge. That’s where we wanna go.
Find more about What If Foods on their website
-
Sober Curious meets World-Class Flavor with Jøyus Non-alcoholic wines this #SoberOctober
Jøyus non-alcoholic wines are making big moves in the beverage industry. Not just for #SoberOctober, but its award-winning tastes help you celebrate all year-long,
Jøyus non-alcoholic wines not only taste like wine, but great wine. With the industry awards to prove it.
Recently I sat down with Jøyus leader Jessica Selander.
This conversation has been edited for length and clarity. You can find the full, un-edited conversation on our YouTube page.
Can you give us a personal story, maybe that includes the celebration of wine, if you have one?
Jessica Selander: The story is very personal and the funny thing is I get so nervous before talking about things because when I started Joyus, I did not originally [think about] doing things like this, being so face forward.
I thought I would create a product that I was really excited about. Eventually I came to realize, how do I do that without telling the “why did I do it?”
The whole reason that Joyus exists and it influences everything I do is because I’m sober. I quit drinking alcohol 17 years ago now, which just feels like a fantastical amount of time.
For me, it’s been very rewarding. I’m very glad about it. But it was definitely something that was really hard and very personal. It wasn’t something I shared about publicly. So that’s also why this is a journey of getting comfortable talking about my sobriety, my recovery.
I like the taste of wine. I like beautiful glasses. I like the smell of wine. I love the community and people; and hanging out and celebrating. It literally says ’let’s celebrate’ on our bottles. How great sparkling is for summer, but sparkling is such a happy thing.
You know what I mean? Something good happens in your life and people are like, let’s celebrate. Let’s pop some bottles. New Year’s Eve is such a beautiful idea of let’s start over. Whatever happened last year, whatever terrible things went down, there’s a brand new year.
It’s a new idea that we can celebrate either that past year that was good or celebrate the potential of a new year. That’s going to be better and that’s sparkling.
And for me, I didn’t have any options.
I started Joyus nine years ago. People ask me how long the company’s been around and we launched about two years ago. So it took me a very long time to figure it out, to save up the money to do it because as you can imagine, nine years ago, people thought it was crazy.
They’re like, ‘That’s a terrible idea. Nobody wants that’. And I’m like ’I want it’.
Having quit drinking, I had a lot of friends that also didn’t drink. I had a lot of people in my life too, who were just light drinkers – could give or take alcohol. Then I have two kids and there’s a huge percent of the population that quits drinking for nine months [because they’re pregnant], sometimes even longer.
You can get into medications, you’re not supposed to drink on it. Anxiety medication, not supposed to drink on it. Heart medication, cancer treatments. There’s a lot of medical stuff too, that you could go down the list.
So I get a lot of people now who are like, ‘Oh, it’s not alcoholic. It’s trending.’ And that’s a thing now.
Early on in my sobriety, I actually used to drink a lot of soda pop out of glass bottles, and then eventually discovered non alcoholic beer.
Non alcoholic beer is definitely having a really cool movement right now. There’s so many different options for non alcoholic beer, but the beer has always been around.
I was like, this exists and it tastes like beer. What’s up with non-alcoholic wine?
There was one sparkling [non-alcoholic wine] in the entire country and that’s all you could find. There was one white and there was one red and that was it.
For me these options were really sweet. They were very affordable, which is nice, but they didn’t have the complete experience that I was going for. I wanted non alcoholic wine that tastes like wine.
I wanted something that I could bring to a gathering and bring to a get together and have it feel appropriate and look appropriate and just look like everybody else’s [alcoholic] bottles. Smell like everyone else’s bottles that you just wouldn’t even know that it was non alcoholic until you saw it on the label. And that’s what I did.
So after trying to find it for forever, eventually I was like, I’m going to do it myself. And I had no idea that this whole sober curious, non alcoholic world would take off like it has at exactly the right time.
So part of me is very frustrated that it took so long. But part of that too, it was like saving up the money to start the company.
This is a bootstrap company. I like making my own decisions. A side effect after getting to this point is I’m 100% in control of all the decisions, which also means that I can control the quality because [it] is incredibly expensive to make.
Let’s talk about your sober story. What it means to you, how you got there, what your mission is, how that helps others.
Jessica Selander: So for me, I can’t drink alcohol. What happens when I put alcohol in my body is that I make decisions I don’t want to be making.
I tried a lot of things. I tried cutting back and it didn’t work. I tried replacing [the drinks and that didn’t work].
My life became pretty chaotic.
I stopped drinking and once I get my life in order, then everything will be fine. I can drink again.
Then after not drinking for a period of time, I was like, Oh, you know what? There’s actually something to this and it’s something deeper and it’s probably the best thing I ever did, honestly, in my life.
I would not be the person I am today on the inside if I had kept drinking.
I have a wonderful spouse and I’ve got amazing kids and I’m able to be a parent and be a person and do that clear eyed and there’s a lot of my upbringing was not the most positive.
Sober curious, it’s a hashtag now.
I’m not saying alcohol shouldn’t exist. I’m not that kind of person whatsoever.
On a personal level it is so exciting to see other brands pop up. The first time I tried non-alcoholic tequila, it blew my mind. It was amazing. The spirits are interesting because some people build it up from science and some people are de-alkalizing; taking the alcohol out.
So that’s the really interesting thing about this. Normally spirits are completely separate from wine, which are very separate from beer, but in non-alcoholic, we’re all in the same swimming pool and everybody’s doing it differently and everybody’s got their own take and you can try one non-alcoholic whiskey and it’s incredibly different from another one.
Community not competition is one of our core values. Normalizing non drinking is a big one. It’s not necessarily replacing alcohol either. I’ve talked to people in the wine industry who are very offended by the idea of non alcoholic wine. I’m like no, it’s backwards. You’ve got it backwards. Non-alcoholic wine is a love letter to wine. You love wine so much that you still want to have it. You just can’t have this one piece that’s in it [the alcohol], but I want everything else.
I want to cheers that glass with other people. I want to drink that red with a really strong stinky cheese. I want to pop that celebratory cork. I want to Rose all day. I just can’t.
I think that wine is very important culturally. It’s so interesting historically. The process is this fascinating mix of art and science. I love everything about it. Getting deeper and deeper into it too, because I want Joyus to be around for forever and I want to make the best possible non-alcoholic wine.
There’s so much stuff to perfect that I could spend the next 50 years just working on non-alcoholic red – period.
You mentioned you’re seeing other competitors in the marketplace. How many different ways are there to make non-alcoholic wine? Are some ways higher quality than others?
Jessica Selander: I can give tips. Our wine is a dealcoholized or alcohol removed wine, which means it’s gone through the whole winemaking process.
It’s aged, it’s fermented, and then we have removed the alcohol from it. Our bottles also say it’s non alcoholic. Sometimes you’ll see a bottle in the store and it just says non alcoholic on it. It doesn’t say dealcoholized or alcohol removed. They’re interchangeable. That means it wasn’t fermented.
So if you’re looking for a wine that is really going to taste like wine or have that fermented taste, look for dealcoholized or alcohol removed.
[Look at the label on the bottle] look for dealcoholized or alcohol removed, because it could say that it’s a non alcoholic red or a non-alcoholic grape [varietal] and it might just be a juice, that hasn’t been fermented or ages but comes in a wine bottle.
What are your goals in the present moment and in the near future to help your company continue to be a leader in the industry?
Jessica Selander: I think goals are accessibility. Normalizing sober drinking. Making [non-alcoholic bottles] easy to find. We do ship off our website, which is great. We’re shipping from Seattle. We ship everything ourselves. If you’re out East, it’s going to take four or five days to get to you.
Also starting to talk to restaurants, getting into more restaurants is a big one. I’ve had anniversary dinners with my spouse and I’m drinking an Arnold Palmer.
I’m calling restaurants and I’m calling grocery stores and they’re still really skeptical that it can be good and that people want it.
Do you think it’s just audience reaching out? Is there a tipping point?
Jessica Selander: Yes, that really helps having people being in a restaurant and saying, “Hey, what do you have that’s an alcoholic?” Because restaurants are saying nobody’s asking for it.
Here I am double digit sober and I had never gone into a restaurant and asked for it.
I would look at the [menu’s] non alcoholic section, which is always juice, soda pop, iced tea and stuff. If it’s not on the menu, I would never ask them for anything. Here I am for over a decade, not telling them that I want this thing. So we started doing more education on social media and online.
If you walk into a restaurant, ask them “What do you have that’s not alcoholic?”
Just pregnant people alone. There’s a large percentage of the population.
Is there science that says a pregnant woman can drink this and have zero concerns?
Jessica Selander: Yes. So this is super interesting. In the United States we’re the most strict in terms of alcohol. If you go to the UK, they have different, actually higher limits for how much alcohol can be in something. The US’s rules come from prohibition when you can’t sell, make, transport alcohol.
The government said once it gets under 0.5%, it’s not alcohol anymore. So that’s where that number comes from and sometimes people see it and say, “Oh, there’s a little bit of alcohol in this.”
There was a study done in Germany where they tested a lot of grocery store items. What they found was there’s a lot of stuff in our grocery stores that had a little bit of alcohol in it. Very ripe bananas, which we feed to toddlers have some alcohol in them. Orange juice is another one.
American hamburger buns. But it also makes sense, bread, yeast and we have more sugar in our products, right? Bread actually has more alcohol than people realize.
Let’s talk about your wine’s flavors and aromas and the winemaking process to get there.
Jessica Selander: I knew what I wanted and I was incredibly picky about it.
We launched with the sparkling white and the sparkling Rose’ and people were asking for a Rose’ with no bubbles.
I thought it would be easy. It was not easy.
Stills are very different from sparkling. I’m a balance of “I know what I want. I’m going for this thing and very focused”, but then I’m also balanced with listening. So we do a lot of focus groups. I do want feedback. I do want opinions.
We were working on it. Everyone’s saying it’s good, it’s great. But I didn’t think it was good enough. We were supposed to launch it in summer and I pushed everything back. Back to the drawing board.
What if we did this? What if that? Talking to people, reading science and chemistry books
Was it like working for the right blend?
Jessica Selander: It’s tweaking so many different things and pieces in the blend. But it doesn’t always work out. If you tweak a blend, sometimes other notes will come forward that you’re not expecting, or sometimes you’ve diminished things that you didn’t intend to diminish.
The still Rose is a great example, it didn’t have that click and so I just kept working on it. And that’s the one that won Double Gold and Best in Class in the San Francisco International Wine Competition, which is one of the biggest and oldest blind tastings in the world and the biggest and oldest blind tasting in the U.S.
Can you share any details and lessons you learned taking on the world of winemaking?
Jessica Selander: There’s so many things. We’re not just making wine. We’re wholesale, we’re distributing, we’re direct to consumer. We have so many different facets.
I could talk for hours about how our wines are very low in sugar and they don’t have the alcohol in them. So our [bottles] probably freeze easier than anything else on the market. So shipping during the winter.
I’ve had conversations with other non alcoholic people too. Everybody’s doing it differently and that’s the hard part too, where I feel like there’s a solution for every problem.
We’ve gotten better and better at winter shipping, but it’s not quite there yet. Figuring out what can we ship in that’s going to have thermal protection, but isn’t going to contribute a ton of garbage. We’ve got the most eco-friendly, innovative winter shippers. They’re made of corn.
They’re expensive as hell, but it’s better than styrofoam. We have to keep everything under 50 pounds for UPS and 12 bottles of sparkling is 51 pounds in these corn shippers.
That thermal protection is still not enough, so we added heat packs.
Let’s talk about your wines.
Jessica Selander: We have four varietals. We’ve got our sparkling white, a sparkling Rosé. Still Rosé, a Cabernet Sauvignon. I love our red a lot. The reds are hard. They’re the most complicated; red wine has the highest alcohol content to begin with.
What flavor notes should we be looking for?
Jessica Selander: It’s definitely an American Cab. More fruit forward. It’s not grape juice. It’s fermented, it’s aged in American oak so you’ll get some green-ness to, like forest floor. The longer it’s been open the more tasting notes you’ll get. I like it more and more throughout the week because the fruit notes settle down. Black currant, cherry, some leather
The still rosé, watermelon, a nice floral to it.
Sparkling rosé. Slightly floral. Some orange blossom to it. Blackberry, but some people say raspberry. Some people say strawberry. They’re very summery
I think sometimes tasting notes feel in excess because we all taste things very differently.
Our audience is foodies. Let’s talk a little bit about some of your favorite meals that you think would pair that your favorite pairings with your wines
Jessica Selander: I bake. I come from a big family, so I can pretty much cook anything.
I heard someone say one time that baking was more science. And cooking was more art and I do agree with that.
Let’s talk about the wine competitions. How you see them, what the experience has been like, and of course, what their results have been.
Jessica Selander: I did not know that competition was as big of a deal as it is [which was a blessing]. So what happened was I was beating my head against the wall being like, “They taste like wine!” And my brother said, nobody believes you. You have to enter them into wine competitions. You need to prove to them in their own landscape that you belong there.
So, here’s this competition. The first one, the sparkling rosé won gold and sparkling white won bronze.
Then I looked deeper into what the competition was [and realized it was the acclaimed San Francisco International Wine Competition & World Spirits Competition ]. It was a blessing because I think I would have been scared to do it. Then [next year] I do it with the Still Rose and the Cab. Then hearing back, you’ve got the highest a non-alcoholic has ever gotten and you’re Still Rose is the best non-alcoholic wine of any varietal entered from all over the world.
I was only wondering if it was even going to place, and here it ends up winning the best.
I was at a grocery store [today] I’ve been trying to get into for two years where the head buyer won’t even try it. So it’s [frustrating] but the more of these awards that we stack up, at some point in time they have to not ignore it. They’ll be like, Oh, this is a real thing.
We haven’t [hit that goal], it’s not normalized yet. We’re in over 300 stores and in almost in every state.
If you want more non-alcoholic near you at a restaurant and grocery store, what are the step-by-step, simple direction
Jessica Selander: This is super easy for people.
So if there’s a grocery store or a local market that you shop at already, you just go into the wine department and say, “Hey, what non-alcoholic wine do you have?” And let them know you want it. Verbally say it
It’s the same thing in restaurants. I do it myself now too, where I get the menu and I’m not seeing what the stuff on it. And I just ask and say, Hey, what non alcoholic stuff do you have?”
Tell us how we can learn more about Joyus. Shopping and following on social media.
Jessica Selander: So all of our social media stuff, our website is DrinkJoyus.com. Our Facebook, our Instagram, our TikTok are all DrinkJoyus
And on the website, there is this Find Joyus store finder map. So you can look on there and find us closest to you and working hard to add new stores pretty much weekly and email, email us. There’s a contact form on the website. Email. If you’re like, Hey, there’s a store by me. I want them to carry you. Email us. And we will call them and we will try, we’ll do our best and we’ll call them again three months later and we’ll call them again.
6 comments on Perfect Wines for Summer, Wine Experts Mike DeSimone, Jeff Jenssen’s new book White Wine Book, available on Amazon now